Building Self-Worth & a Secure Dating Mindset with Dr. Morgan Anderson
In today's episode, I'm joined by Dr. Morgan Anderson and we're talking all about building self-worth, self-esteem and self-confidence in the context of dating. Dr. Morgan is a licensed clinical psychologist, attachment theory expert, relationship coach, and author of the relationship self-help book, Love Magnet. She is also the host of the Let's Get Vulnerable podcast.
In our conversation, we cover:
how insecure attachment styles fuel unhealthy dating patterns
how low self-worth and a lack of self-trust impact our dating mindset
common shifts that occur as you rewire old patterns and move towards secure attachment
practical tools and tips for shifting your dating mindset and building a secure dating persona
To connect with Dr. Morgan:
Listen to her podcast: Let's Get Vulnerable
Find her on Instagram: @drmorgancoaching
Visit her website: drmorgancoaching.com
Questions for Discussion & Reflection
How do your past experiences or attachment patterns influence your approach to dating and relationships?
What are some negative beliefs about yourself that may be impacting your self-worth in relationships?
Can you identify any adaptive coping mechanisms or protective strategies that stem from past relational trauma? How do they affect your current relationships?
How might self-compassion play a role in healing your wounds and developing a healthier approach to dating?
In what ways can you broaden your perspective on self-worth beyond the context of relationships? What activities or interests bring value and fulfillment to your life outside of romance?
Have you experienced a corrective emotional experience in your relationships that positively impacted your attachment style? If not, how might you seek out such experiences?
What are some intentional ways you can maintain a sense of self and pursue your individual interests while dating or in a relationship?
Have you noticed any urgency in your approach to relationships? If so, how might slowing down and reorienting yourself lead to more informed choices and healthier dynamics?
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Check out my couples course, Secure Together (& save $200 with the code SECURE)
Save $150 on my Higher Love break-up course with the code PHOENIX
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
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Episode Transcript
Stephanie Rigg [00:00:29]:
In today's episode, I'm joined by Dr. Morgan Anderson and we are talking all about building self worth and a secure identity in the context of dating, which I know is something that a lot of listeners are going to be really, really interested to hear about. Dr. Morgan is a licenced clinical psychologist, attachment theory expert, relationship coach and author of the relationship self help book Love Magnet. She's also the host of the let's get Vulnerable podcast and the creator of the empowered, secure loved relationship programme. Our conversation covers a lot of ground from why we get stuck in the same patterns, why we find ourselves going after unavailable people, why we would want to do the work, to rewire all of that. What that work actually looks like some really practical steps that you could start taking towards building a more secure identity and actually creating the kind of relationship that you want and enjoying yourself in the process. So I'm sure that you guys are going to love this conversation and I'm really looking forward to sharing it with you. Dr. Morgan, thank you so much for joining me.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:01:36]:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited about our conversation.
Stephanie Rigg [00:01:40]:
Yeah, likewise. So maybe we could start by you just introducing yourself and giving everyone a bit of a feel for what you do and the kinds of people that you usually help in your work.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:01:54]:
Yes, I am Dr. Morgan Anderson. I am the host of the let's get vulnerable podcast and I help women heal and have high self worth so that they can attract the relationships they my, I call it like my former life. I was a clinical psychologist, I still am a clinical psychologist. And then I saw how big of a gap there was in terms of attachment theory and people knowing about attachment theory and how to apply it to their dating lives. And I started this coaching business about four years ago and now have had the pleasure of coaching over 500 women and helping them become more securely attached and step into their high self worth version of themselves. So it's been a wild ride the last four years and I love what I do. And of course, as you know, Stephanie, for a lot of us who are drawn to this field, this really was a calling for me because it was my own personal struggle.
Stephanie Rigg [00:03:09]:
To say, is there that thread of personal story that led you to really knowing how deeply this was needed and having walked that path yourself?
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:03:19]:
Yes. Isn't that the case for those of us that really run with this? It starts with the personal story, and that was certainly the case for me of experiencing childhood trauma that then led me to really painful dating patterns all through my twenty s. And then I tell people that my rock bottom moment really was when I was dating a narcissist. And that relationship just got to a very unhealthy place, and I was kind of at that fork in the road of, I can keep doing this, but I know I am causing so much damage to myself and every relationship I go through is just getting more and more painful. So at that rock bottom place, I decided I need to heal, and I really threw myself into researching attachment theory and ways to rewire your belief system. I'm really happy to say I'm three years into a wonderful, healthy, securely attached partnership, and I think if it's possible for me, it's really possible for anyone.
Stephanie Rigg [00:04:30]:
Yeah, it sounds like there are some common threads in our respective stories there, because I had a similar experience of when I was younger, my first two long term relationships were, I think, just probably by pure luck, were quite healthy. But then I had this relationship in my mid 20s, which was really not healthy at all. Very dysfunctional, like very classic anxious, avoidant, every expression of that dynamic. And it was really only through that experience, as stressful as it was. And I look back and it's quite amazing to me that I persisted in it because I stayed in it for three years. Amazing to me that I persisted through so much dysfunction and so much just like, striving and pushing all the time, every day. But I really don't regret it at all because it was that that pushed me to the bring. And in a funny sort of way, I can look back now and see that the patterns that really came to the fore in that relationship were sort of latent in me in those earlier relationships, but they sort of weren't brought out as much because the relationship was more secure.
Stephanie Rigg [00:05:44]:
But it was only in really seeing those parts of myself that were exacerbated through that dynamic that I was able to then go, okay, this needs my attention. As much as it has a nice story to tell myself that it's all his fault because he's just a bad guy. There's a part of me that's getting something out of this because I didn't just walk away at the start right. There were all of the signs there. And I, for some reason, was attracted to that challenge. And so I think that having those experiences, it's not like we need to go and seek out awful relationships for the sake of growth. But I think when we can look back and go, okay, there's something in this that's more than just, oh, I just attract all the bad guys. It's like, well, what is it within me that is attracted to that? That really gives us a lot of fertile ground for growth and self exploration and healing if we're brave enough to do that work.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:06:42]:
Oh, so powerful for you to share that. It makes me think about the concept repetition compulsion, which, you know, where we are in our adult relationships, repeating unfinished business from our childhoods. And yes, there are those relationships like the one you described, where it is your unfinished business just staring at you. You can't avoid it. And you see those wounds that have never been examined or never been healed. And yes, it is an opportunity to do that deeper work so that we can then intentionally go into our future relationships. So it's a very empowering way to look at it. And I do.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:07:30]:
I'm incredibly grateful for that relationship that I went through because, yes, it was probably my most toxic relationship, and it is the one that made me say, this pattern has to stop and to finally really see my wounds. So, yeah, I'm with you now. I have a lot of gratitude for it. At the time, I didn't, but now I do.
Stephanie Rigg [00:07:57]:
Yeah, totally. So is there kind of an archetype of person who you're seeing again and again? Like, who are the kinds of people that you're working with? What are the things they're struggling with? Is there a pretty clear pattern or a few key patterns that you're seeing?
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:08:14]:
Yeah, a lot of the people that I work with have found themselves in relationships that don't end well or relationships that don't meet their needs, or they're constantly attracted to that emotionally unavailable partner who can't meet them? I work with both anxiously attached and avoidantly attached individuals, and also a lot of disorganised attachment. As you know, that's really common in my work, since that's so connected to early childhood trauma. And I think that oftentimes with disorganised attachment, we can just find ourselves in really painful dynamics. And then those folks are a little bit more motivated to seek help. So a lot of disorganised attachment, but women will come to me when they say, okay, I've blamed the dating pool. I've blamed all the guys, but now I'm taking ownership. I am the common denominator. I want to own my role in this and they're so ready to heal and do the work and they just don't want to be in pain in their relationships anymore.
Stephanie Rigg [00:09:32]:
Yeah. That sense of exasperation, of, like, surely it's not meant to be this hard. I'm looking around me and it feels like other people are managing to do this. And despite my best intentions and the fact that I really want a relationship, why does it keep ending the same way? Why do I keep finding myself? And I think a lot of what I see and hear from people is they're attracted to someone that really seems all kind of picture perfect until it isn't. And not only is that painful to play out, but every time you play it out, your self trust just kind of withers, right? Your ability to go, oh, do I just have terrible judgement because I thought things were one way and now it's this 180. And so then that really erodes my sense of self moving into the next relationship and the next person I meet, because I'm scared of my own, scared of myself, scared of my patterns. And so there's like this internal vigilant, just like this barren self trust environment. And I think that when we combine that with general anxiety or.
Stephanie Rigg [00:10:46]:
I talk a lot about how I think much of the time when we're afraid of something, we're afraid of our own feelings, I don't want to experience that because of the embarrassment or the rejection or the shame or the hurt that I might feel if that thing comes to pass. And so we just end up in overdrive and it sucks all of the joy out of it. I think there's just like, from all of these angles, people are having a really hard time navigating this, and it doesn't feel like it's getting any easier.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:11:18]:
Oh, I love that you mentioned this about self trust. That is such a key. And I do think that's a common thread in people that I work with, is just that disconnection from self and being unable to tell, okay, what is my past trauma? Or what is my insecure attachment style versus what is my inner knowing? What is the truth? What is my gut? And I know when you get to that place, it does, it just makes dating exhausting. And then you get a lot of people who overcorrect and they say, I'm never going to date again. And they're not in the dating scene. Right. They're giving up on love and just going to travel the world with their girlfriends. But then at the end of the day, they admit to themselves they do want partnership and they realise, okay, I have to go about dating differently and I think that speaking of self trust, for so many people, you probably find this. It started early on, that disconnection from self.
Stephanie Rigg [00:12:34]:
Yeah. And I think that one of the hardest things and something I hear time and time again and something I've experienced myself is like, how can I trust myself when I had this paranoia or this fear and it came to fruition and so it's like banking evidence in favour of the fear story that's telling me I was right. And so that protective part of me that's on the lookout, that's hyper vigilant, that's snooping or that's paranoid. When it gets proven right by an experience or a relationship, then that only bolsters the perceived importance of that pattern going forward. It's really hard from that place to go, okay, I'm going to just drop that and stop doing it because it feels like it's serving such an important protective function. And so I think there's all of these pieces that are operating there to keep us really entrenched in our patterns and we just keep spinning around in them.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:13:30]:
Yes, it's so true. And I love when people start to build self trust and they're gaining that inner knowing and they're hopefully moving towards secure attachment. I see those things as being so interconnected and they're able to feel when something is off early on. I've had so many clients who go, oh, my gosh, now that I've done this work and I'm moving towards secure attachment, I know that I just saved myself six months of games, six months of heartache. I felt it early on. I trusted myself and something that in the past, I would have just predicted it and catastrophized and yes, it would have happened. I was able to just remove myself early on and I think there's so much, oh, gosh, it's just such a big win to me. When we know what to invest our energy into early on and we can feel it.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:14:34]:
I guess it's preventative heartbreak. I love that so much. Yeah.
Stephanie Rigg [00:14:40]:
I think that it's probably not something that happens overnight, but you can, over time doing this work, take stock and go, yeah. Things that used to be attractive to me, I'm just so not interested in that kind of gameplaying or just that kind of energy, like flakiness, inconsistency doesn't do anything for me anymore in a way that it would have, once upon a time, really lit my system up and sent me into some sort of like, made me go in for more to investigate or to try and clarify or to gather information. It's just like that falls away a bit and you cease to be drawn to that kind of dynamic because you've built enough of the new stuff within you that's like, oh, that doesn't feel like a fit anymore for where I'm at, where I'm going.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:15:31]:
Yes, I love that so much. When you can start to feel that shift within you of being attracted to secure attachment and a securely attached relationship. I remember when I was doing this work on myself and feeling like, where did all of these good, emotionally available men come from? Did they just fall from the sky? Where have they been? The reality was I just wasn't attracted to them when I was in my disorganised attachment place. So it's so true that we can really change who we are attracted to and what kind of relationship dynamic is attractive to us.
Stephanie Rigg [00:16:16]:
Yeah, I posted something yesterday which was from a previous podcast episode and it was along the lines of when we've been in those really inconsistent, kind of chaotic, dysfunctional relationships, that intermittent reinforcement that we get is so addictive. And so when we then start to step towards healthier relationships, it can feel like it's just not doing much for us in those early transitional stages when you're doing this work. And I think a lot of people will experience that and relate to that, this sense of healthy feeling. Boring at first, yes. When your system is really calibrated to spikes and chaos and the person who is kind of mean to you or doesn't meet your needs or is really unavailable most of the time, but then they turn up and they take you out to dinner, that's going to feel so much better for your system when you're used to that than the person who takes you out to dinner every week and is really consistent and available, right?
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:17:25]:
Absolutely.
Stephanie Rigg [00:17:26]:
So recognising that, recognising that, that's a powerful system. And being really conscious about, like, which part of myself do I want in the driver's seat here? The part that is going to respond really automatically to those old patterns. Do I want to be led by that kind of like pinball machine lighting up inside me and just follow the feeling? Or do I want to make really conscious decisions in the direction of what I know is best for me and what I know is right for me? Because I think if we do just keep following those familiar feelings, we're going to follow them down familiar paths to familiar dynamics with familiar relationships, we know what we want.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:18:08]:
Yeah.
Stephanie Rigg [00:18:09]:
And then we go, oh, why does this keep happening to me?
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:18:12]:
Exactly. I love that you're talking about this. We talk about this in my community a lot. And one of the sayings I have is secure is sexy because it is part of that rewiring the brain to adjust to a new normal, to say, wow, emotional availability is really attractive and starting to learn that there's different levels of intimacy that come with that and a different kind of intimacy that is stable and predictable. I think what we find, and I don't know, this is my own personal experience, my clients experience. Maybe you relate to this, of when you've been in that for a while and you're starting to normalise into it, you then see, oh, wow, this is really attractive, this is really amazing and really different from anything I've had before. And I don't even know how to really put it into words. But you know what I'm saying, right?
Stephanie Rigg [00:19:17]:
It's like this deep nourishment that your system can actually just rest in relationships. And I think if you've always had a lot of insecurity, if that's been kind of the dominant force of your relationships has been stress and insecurity, it's probably just like the medicine that you didn't realise how deeply you needed it to actually just be able to rest in the safety of a relationship.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:19:42]:
I love that word rest because the word that comes to me is relax. That ability to relax into love and to create a partnership that really feels like home, that is easy. There's so much joy and love that comes from that, that so many people with relational trauma in their childhoods have probably never experienced that kind of relationship before.
Stephanie Rigg [00:20:14]:
Of course there's trust in it, right? It's really hard to trust that it's real. And so we can go so quickly to trying to find the problem or trying to find where it's all going to fall apart. When's the other shoe going to drop? When's it all going to go south? Because that's just what we know and that's what we've been really primed to expect, right?
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:20:38]:
Yes. And people who are becoming secure will have extinction bursts. You've heard of that term where you're learning this new behaviour, you're becoming securely attached and then your brain goes, hey, but what about this insecure attachment behaviour? What about all these old protest behaviours? That we've used before. Are you sure you don't want these? And then they come back with a vengeance. Right. So I have these women that I'm helping and they'll say, oh, my gosh, I was doing so well and then all of a sudden I had this huge anxious attachment spiral and really, that's extinction. Bursts of the brain saying, well, hey, this was our old way of being. This worked for us for a really long time.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:21:27]:
Are you sure you don't want this?
Stephanie Rigg [00:21:29]:
Yeah, well, I think when we've got those protective strategies that feel so deeply etched into us, it's like muscle memory. It's like if you're right handed, you're learning to write with your left hand and it's just like, oh, the pull to the old way. Those parts of you that really are protective, right, and were once adaptive, it can feel really scary. For those parts to feel like you're trying to make them go away, it's like, oh, you are bad, and I'm going to make you stop now. It's why I really emphasise approaching ourselves with self compassion and not being like, oh, I'm so fucked up, I'm so broken, I've just got to stop being so anxious or I've got to stop being so scared. Makes a lot of sense, right? My anxiety. What's my anxiety trying to keep me safe from. What's my anxiety trying to tell me and recognising that.
Stephanie Rigg [00:22:27]:
That part of you or those parts of you have been working really tirelessly to keep you safe for a really long time and that that's not something we need to make go away. We just need to maybe look at whether that's still adaptive to our current situation and environment and what we're working towards. And to the extent that it isn't, it's like, well, okay, can I come up with some new tools and new ways of doing things that are maybe a better fit for where I am and where I'm going?
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:22:56]:
Absolutely. When we are critical or we shame those parts of ourselves, we just maintain them and then we can make them bigger, we make them come out sideways. So 100% agree with you of compassion, kindness, curiosity, being willing to explore, what's the story I'm telling myself there? What needs a little bit more healing? What's the wound that's coming up? Right. And then I teach this in my programme about how do we then have compassion and then say, how do I realign with this securely attached version of me and what does my current healthy coping look like, but so many people, they don't do the compassion right. They're just beating themselves up and then they just want to try to move back to a healthier version. But we know you won't be able to move through things without that compassion. It's so needed.
Stephanie Rigg [00:24:02]:
Yeah, I think I often say the shame, it's just layering more and more stress onto a system that's already in a lot of stress. If I'm just making myself wrong for everything about my experience and when unworthiness and low self esteem is already at the heart of a lot of that, punishing ourselves, beating ourselves up, criticising ourselves, not going to make that better, right? That's just going to make that feel more true. All of our stories of low self esteem, low self worth. So I think that recognising that we have to turn things around there and that really starts within. It's going to be very hard to do any kind of meaningful growth or healing work from a place of shame and solve criticism. It just tends not to work very well.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:24:50]:
It's so true. It's so true. And then I think once people are in that more secure place or they've done some of that inner work and they're building their self worth, then what I know we probably both see is where people start to have new relationship experiences. I call these corrective emotional experiences. Right. And what I love about that is then you're gaining evidence for the healthy relationship, for the secure relationship. And I know how significant that is for people in their healing process.
Stephanie Rigg [00:25:31]:
Yeah, and I would say that's true even if you don't go on to be in a long term relationship and marry the person. It's just like, can I allow myself to really receive the goodness of this experience irrespective of what happens? I think the more we shift away from some of those insecure patterns, the more we can just be open to presence and curiosity in the dating process, in getting to know someone. And even if it's not a great fit, you might just find yourself really nourished by a connection over dinner and talking to someone and feeling a level of authenticity and confidence within yourself. That can be a beautiful corrective experience, even if it doesn't go anywhere or nothing becomes of it. I think that think it we are, then the more we can take all of that in and really receive it and receive the benefit of it. Whereas when we're in that really constricted anxious space, it's just such a strong negative bias. So it's like everything feels like a failure or a setback, just not perfect. And that's what we're trained to see and that's really what we take in.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:26:43]:
Oh, I love that you're talking about this because one of the things I would want to share is this idea that really healthy, secure attachment is the foundation in dating. And so many of us, if we don't have that foundation, we're getting stuck in those anxious, avoidant or unhealthy relationship patterns. And that's kind of really easy to pull us in and just get us stuck in that place. But when we have secure as the foundation, then we get to this really juicy, fun, exciting level of dating where we're able to actually look at compatibility and values and how do I want to feel? It's almost like the next level. I know for a fact when I was in an insecure attachment place, dating was just kind of this challenge and I was so wrapped up in fear of abandonment that I just wanted to make somebody like me and choose me. I couldn't access compatibility because I was so focused just on that attachment level. So I just think it's so powerful when just as you said, you get to a secure place, you're in this abundance mindset, you know your worth and then you're just exploring compatibility and values and do I even like this person? Is this someone where our lifestyles match up? Right. It's just such a juicier, more fun place to be.
Stephanie Rigg [00:28:16]:
Yeah. And I think that everything you say there around the sole criterion being like, does this person like me? For a lot of people, particularly with more anxious attachment patterns, it's just like they really like me. So great, let's go. And there's no sense of reciprocity around, like, am I scoping out whether I like them or am I just feeling really flattered, lit up like that deeply unworthy part of me loves the attention and loves someone pursuing me. And that's kind of all I need to get myself hooked into the pattern. And I think that when we tend to that part of us so that it's not so susceptible to those little bursts of ego attention, then the much better place we are to have a balanced approach where we are there and we're thinking about like, as you say, how do I want to feel? What are my values? What are my non negotiables? What are the things that are really important to me in a partner, in a relationship? And I think the other side of that, it's kind of this balancing act of we want to have clarity. And we want to be able to advocate for those things. And we don't want to be too rigid or prescriptive, like, we want to be open to being surprised by someone.
Stephanie Rigg [00:29:32]:
And I think that having that secure base within ourselves allows us to walk that line in a way that, as you say, is kind of fun, or at least feels like a totally different energy to a very constricted, anxious, rigid way of doing things, which is just kind of bracing for fear and trying to get someone to like us, which is not fun. Right?
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:29:59]:
Yes. I think about this deep knowing of, hey, if I've already chosen myself and I know my worth, and I've released some of my unfinished business from the past, then I can really approach dating with this blank slate. And I'm not here trying to get you to choose me. I've chosen myself. And it is just such a different approach. Yeah.
Stephanie Rigg [00:30:29]:
And I imagine as well, a key piece of that is I'm not making it mean anything about me at a fundamental level. If you like me or you don't, or however it plays out, I can be somewhat. It's not that we become immune to that. I think you can be really securely attached and still have hurt feelings or be disappointed or upset if something doesn't work out and you were really excited about it, but you don't take that additional step of like, what's wrong with me? This always happens. No one's ever going to like me. Those old stories that come up and drag us down, I think you can just be with that, whatever the emotion is without taking that additional step of telling really painful stories about yourself and letting that impact your worth at a really fundamental level.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:31:18]:
Oh, it's so true. So true. And I think about all of my years of, I'll call it unconscious dating, where I did have all those negative beliefs about myself, and I would just use whatever negative experiences happened to me in dating as ways to confirm those really unhealthy beliefs about myself. So our brains are very good at looking to confirm whatever we believe and that we look to our environment. So that's why I really believe in doing this healing work and looking at your belief systems and releasing your past so that when you do go into dating, it's a blank slate weighed by all of that. Yes.
Stephanie Rigg [00:32:09]:
So if we were to pivot to giving people a bit of a sense of the how on all of this, I feel like we've painted the picture of why you'd want to do it and what's possible. What does the how look like I love this question.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:32:25]:
I think it's a very important one. One of the first pieces is the commitment of I really do want to work on myself and I know how important this work is. So just making that decision and releasing expectations on how long it's going to take it is a journey. So I think that's very important of I make the commitment, however long it takes. The second piece would be awareness. You have to understand what are my current patterns, what is my attachment style. And then I take my clients through something called a relationship inventory, where we really look at all the dynamics of past significant relationships. That's part of the awareness piece, processing those old woundings and being willing to look at it.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:33:17]:
I'm not one of those coaches who's going to come on here and say, oh, just write out the life that you want and say your affirmations and then you'll have exactly what you want. That's not how healing works. The only way forward is through, as you know. So I really believe in examining our past in the beginning. Yeah.
Stephanie Rigg [00:33:41]:
And I think that intention setting is great and conscious awareness is great. And as we talked about earlier, there's a doing piece here. We actually have to step out into the world and let our system, our being, live out another version of things. Because if we have a lot of evidence banked up as to why our old beliefs or our old experiences are true and the only way, then no amount of journaling or visioning is going to be enough to shift that. It's a really great start, but it's only part of the story there. And I think that having that lived experience is invaluable. We really can't land in that new reality until we're feeling it in our body in a really experiential way.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:34:37]:
Absolutely, yes. So, yeah, definitely the awareness piece, being willing to show up differently with behaviours as you're describing, and showing up with new ways of being. I also really believe in identifying your securely attached identity. So getting really familiar with what would secure attachment look like in practise. So many of us don't have that model, we wouldn't even know what it would be. So really defining your securely attached identity and then using self compassion, use it to realign with that securely attached self when needed. So I guess those are some of the core things. I know we could probably spend a few hours going over the exact path, but I really believe in awareness.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:35:36]:
Rewire your brain with really healthy beliefs about yourself and relationships. Learn about your securely attached identity. Create that very clearly and then practise showing up differently.
Stephanie Rigg [00:35:51]:
Yeah, I would also add to that something that I will often say to people is like, when you're working on building your self worth in relationships or in dating, it can really help to work on building your self worth outside of that context as well. Because I think that particularly if you're, again, more anxious in your patterns and your tendency is for all roads to lead back to relationships. Right. Everything I'm doing, I'm doing it to find a partner and to be loved. I think sometimes if we're really laser focused on that, even if we're doing all this good work, can be with like, the strings attached of, I'm doing it so that someone will love. And so I think there can be huge benefit in broadening out our scope and going, okay, securely attached version of me would also have all of these other things going on in my life, right? And maybe I'd be practising more self discipline in other areas, maybe I'd be challenging myself, maybe I'd be taking up a hobby or whatever, but not having it all be in this very narrow funnel that is about securing a partner. Because I think the reality is that securely attached people do have much more balanced lives. And that sense of self worth is not just relational in nature, it's really essential to your identity and your self image.
Stephanie Rigg [00:37:18]:
And so I think that can be hugely helpful and pay really big dividends to broaden out the lens a little. And I know for me that that was a really big piece in building that up for myself and eventually leaving that relationship that I was in was that I was not even really focused on the relationship so much. I think I'd started to kind of detach from it, but I didn't quite have the courage or the confidence to pull the trigger and leave. But in the background, I was doing all of this stuff to really focus on, I suppose, anchoring in my own value and my own efficacy and capability. And these things that were not about love or romance or partnership, they were just about like, no, you're a valuable person and you've got this right, you're strong and you're capable. And I think that having those experiences in a kind of broad way can be really, really helpful. When it comes back to all of.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:38:19]:
This stuff, I love that you mentioned this. It's so powerful. I wrote a quote that did well on social media, and I think it's because it's a metaphor for this idea. But I said something along the lines of the kind of relationship where you're not my entire world, but you're my favourite continent to visit.
Stephanie Rigg [00:38:45]:
Yeah.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:38:46]:
Because I really love that idea. We cannot have our relationship be our entire world. It's not healthy for us. It's not healthy for our partners. My partner and I, three years together, we do something called solo Saturdays. We do whatever really fills us up as individuals on Saturdays. And we know that we need that time, and it's incredibly important. He's a fly fisherman.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:39:15]:
He loves fly fishing. And in my old relationships, I know I would have tried to force myself to take on his hobby to learn.
Stephanie Rigg [00:39:25]:
How to fly fish.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:39:26]:
I can't tell you how grateful I am that I am in this secure place. I am not buying a fly fishing rod. I'm not learning to fly fish. I celebrate that that's his. And I have my own hobbies. And it is very important to maintain that sense of self and you as the individual, knowing that that is so important to your own happiness and also to your ability to be a good partner.
Stephanie Rigg [00:39:55]:
Yeah, I completely agree. And I think the more that you can, if you're single at the moment, cultivate that really proactively and consciously and use that time when you do have more space to really figure that out for yourself. Because I think it's easy to fall into relationships and to get a little bit lazy and to kind of collapse into the relationship and kind of do everything together. It's like, figure that out while you're single. It's not that you can't do it while you're in a relationship, but it's a beautiful opportunity to figure that out while you're single and then be really aware of it and be really kind of diligent about keeping up those things. Because if for no other reason, then I think it's so rewarding on an individual kind of self level. But it's also much better for the relationship. It's much more attractive to have that separateness and to have distinctive lives rather than just to be kind of one entity again.
Stephanie Rigg [00:40:52]:
I think the insecure parts of us, particularly more anxious patterns, love that idea of just let's enmesh and become one, and then I'll feel safe because I'll have my claws sunk into you so deeply that I'll always know where you are, what you're doing, and I'll never lose you. Right? Yeah, but it's not sexy. Suck the oxygen out of it. Yeah. I think there's really a lot more to be gained from very deliberately fostering and holding on to that full, vibrant sense of self and then to be able to enjoy that in each other and appreciate that rather than becoming complacent and sloppy about those things.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:41:37]:
It's so true. Desire needs a bridge to cross, as Esther Perel says. We need that distance to be able to create desire. I say something much less sophisticated than that. I always say boundaries are hot. They really are. Boundaries are very attractive. So knowing what your boundaries are with your time and being able to maintain that no matter where you are in a relationship, I think that is one of the things that leads to healthy long term relationships.
Stephanie Rigg [00:42:15]:
Yeah, agreed. What would you say to people who are in the early stages of dating someone and who experience that urge to just fast track everything, to get to that place of certainty and kind of lock it down, because that in between space can feel really anxiety inducing, can feel really wobbly. What would be your advice for people who are in that kind of interim phase of dating?
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:42:42]:
I definitely have a few pieces. One is something I call reality testing. It's something that's using cognitive behavioural therapy of slowing down and actually taking stock of what is the reality here. How much time have I spent with this person? What do I actually know about them? Given where we are, what is the appropriate emotional investment? And one way I like to really frame this is, is there enough secure attachment in the relationship? Aka, do I know this person well enough? Have they earned my vulnerability right? Has that been established enough to support the level of emotional investment? So sort of thinking about it as like the foundation of a house, if it's not there, then I can't build on it. And reminding yourself, you owe it to yourself to slow down. Let someone earn your vulnerability, let someone show you that they can build secure attachment and really pace your emotional investment.
Stephanie Rigg [00:43:59]:
Which can feel so counterintuitive for a lot of people, right? It's like the opposite of everything that their body's telling them to do, which is like, faster, faster, faster, faster. Let's jump ahead to the part where we've said I love you and we move in together and I don't have to deal with all of this uncertainty. But as you say, I think that skipping ahead can come at a cost because you're kind of building the walls without the foundation there, to use your analogy. And that typically comes back to bite you. You realise that you haven't really done the legwork to justify the level of emotional attachment and investment that you've poured into this thing. And then if it does crash and burn, it's going to hurt a lot more because we had so much riding on it, there was so much pressure on it, there was so much investment that was maybe just disproportionate to reality.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:44:57]:
Exactly. And think about yourself as an intentional investor. We'd say that with the stock market, it's no different with your relationships of, hey, I need to really know, is this right for me? And your energy, your time, your love, that is your most valuable resource. So really just seeing it as, hey, I really do need to be intentional with how I'm investing this. And just like in the stock market, we want return on investment in relationships. Is this creating secure attachment? Is this something that can grow? Do I feel how I want to feel? You need to be willing to slow down and be that love scientist that's gathering the data on those things. And yes, it is so hard when that's not what you're used to doing. It can feel so foreign.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:45:52]:
But remember, if you want a different result, you have to show up differently.
Stephanie Rigg [00:45:58]:
Yeah. And I think also just reminding yourself that that urgency is, that's not a reliable feeling. Right. And that's probably not what we want to be, just blindly following. I think for a lot of people it's like, but if I slow down, what if they lose interest? It's like, probably not going to happen. And if it does, then that wasn't the person.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:46:23]:
Right.
Stephanie Rigg [00:46:24]:
If it's that feeble and flimsy that you slowing down and pacing this appropriately means they lose interest, then that's really good information too. Not your burst. If it's as amazing as it feels, it will still be there at a more sustainable pace and it'll probably be all the more amazing for you slowing down and taking that time. But as you say, I think that when we're trying to forge a new path, we have to be really prepared to not just do things because we feel a certain way. Well, I feel this, so I have to act in that way. Well, you have a little bit more agency than that. And reminding yourself of your capacity to choose something different, as strong as the feelings might be and it might be so overpowering, so overwhelming. But just like grounding yourself, coming back, okay, as you say right here, right now, what do I know to be true? What choices do I have available to me? What's the right thing for me to do? And hopefully on the other side of that process of kind of reorienting and grounding, it feels a little more spacious and a little less burgeon and catastrophic.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:47:42]:
Absolutely. I love how you describe that. I think about this in real life of, okay, you have the decision, what would that securely attached version of me do? And they probably wouldn't send the 17 text messages. They would go to yoga with their friends like they had planned. Right. We always have that option of, how am I showing up? What am I aligning with? And I'll tell you this. I think some of the first times you start to slow down and intentionally decide how empowering that is and learning, oh, I can slow down. I don't have to let my anxious brain or my avoidant brain decide what I do.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:48:27]:
I can be intentional and decide differently.
Stephanie Rigg [00:48:30]:
Yeah. It's almost like knowing that your first thought is going to be probably coming from the old part and just, like, waiting for the second thought, slow it down and not just shoot from the hip, because there's a really good chance that that fear brain is going to be sending you down an old path that might not be where you want to be headed. So just knowing that about yourself, and I suppose it comes back to that self awareness, and that was a huge part of my journey and my growth is just like, being able to notice it being like, oh, that's my anxious brain telling me to do the anxious thing. And I don't have to follow that. I can actually choose something different. I think the more it's like doing reps of an exercise at the gym, the more reps you do, the easier it feels, the more confident you are in that being an option available to you. And over time, the new way feels more natural than the old way. And that's a really powerful thing to experience.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:49:31]:
It is. I love that you said that. That's so true. And I think early on it's hard to believe that, but we know that to be true, that it really can become your more natural way of being.
Stephanie Rigg [00:49:44]:
Thank goodness. I know. Thank goodness. It really is something for me when I think back to some of the things that I would do by default that now would be so unnatural, like in conflict or it's like I wouldn't reach for those things anymore. It's not how we do things, because I've actually got this new way that works a lot better for me and doesn't cost my system so much, and there's a lot of peace and relief in having that. So it's very important work.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:50:15]:
Yes, it is. Yeah. And wow, what a gift you've given to your community. I've had the pleasure of listening to your show, and I'm just amazed at how much you've put out there and how good you are at explaining everything and sharing. I know you've helped so many people on their healing path.
Stephanie Rigg [00:50:38]:
Thank you. I really appreciate that. And likewise, it sounds like you're doing a lot of really important work and much needed. I know that so many listeners of the show are very much in this space and experiencing a lot of those patterns and repeat dynamics. I'm sure there's a lot of people who are going to get a lot of value out of today's conversation. Before we wrap up, where can people find you if they want to go deeper on your work or familiarise themselves with your podcast, Instagram, all of that sort of stuff?
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:51:08]:
Yes. Thank you so much for having me. And really, the best place to connect with me is on my podcast. With over 400 episodes now, it's the let's get vulnerable podcast available anywhere podcasts are aired. And then I do also spend some time on Instagram, and that is at Dr. Morgan coaching. Dr. Morgan coaching.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:51:32]:
So happy to answer dms and I do a daily informational post there. But the podcast really is where all the juicy stuff is. So cheque out the let's get vulnerable podcast.
Stephanie Rigg [00:51:46]:
Perfect. And we will link all of that in the show notes. Well, Dr. Morgan, thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure. It's been so lovely to have you. Thank you so much for joining us.
Dr. Morgan Anderson [00:51:57]:
Thank you for having me.
Stephanie Rigg [00:51:59]:
This was lovely.
Stephanie Rigg [00:52:03]:
Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here, and I hope to see you again soon.
Keywords from Podcast Episode
Anxious attachment, self-worth, healthy dating, rejection, self-improvement, secure attachment, relational trauma, self-compassion, shame, self-criticism, corrective emotional experiences, solo Saturdays, desire, emotional investment, intentional investing, self-awareness, self-trust, fear, relationship dynamics, Stephanie Rigg, Dr. Morgan Anderson, attachment theory, secure identity, coaching business, emotionally unavailable partners, disorganised attachment, healing relationships, personal experiences, clinical psychologist