Cultivating Secure Love with Julie Menanno (@thesecurerelationship)
In today's episode, I'm delighted to be joined by Julie Menanno. Julie is a couples therapist, best known for her hugely popular instagram account @thesecurerelationship where she offers nuanced and insightful takes on attachment dynamics and how couples can overcome negative cycles to build secure relationships. She has just released her first book, Secure Love, which offers couples a roadmap for building thriving relationships that last.
Our conversation covers a lot of ground, including:
A deeper look at the fear of abandonment in anxious attachment
Key challenges of avoidant attachment
Negative cycles in anxious-avoidant relationships
What to do when one partner doesn't want to go to therapy
The importance of validating your partner's emotions (even if you disagree with their position)
Julie's tips (as a mum of 6!) for raising secure kids
To connect with Julie Menanno:
Follow Julie on Instagram @thesecurerelationship
Questions for Discussion & Reflection
Reflect on your current or past relationships. Can you identify moments where you felt an emotional safety net was either present or lacking? How did this impact your communication and connection with your partner?
Consider the concept of first and second order change discussed by Julie. Have there been times in your relationship where consistent effort to change was clear, but a shift in the environmental context was necessary to see growth? How did you navigate this, or how might you approach it in the future?
When encountering triggers within your relationship, do you tend to react immediately, or do you take a moment to pause and observe your reactions? Think about a recent situation and how your response may have influenced the outcome.
Growing up, what was the attitude towards conflict and emotions in your household? In what ways do you see this shaping your approach to handling tension and disagreements in your adult relationships?
Julie highlighted the importance of validating each partner's concerns in a relationship. Recall a time when you felt your concerns were fully acknowledged by your partner. How did it affect your feelings and the resolution of the issue?
Upon facing adversity and conflicts in your relationships, do you notice a drive to immediately repair and resolve issues, or do you recognize the potential value in the struggle? How might embracing the messiness contribute to relationship growth?
Think about the last big fight you had in a relationship. In what ways did it provide an opportunity for growth and a deeper understanding of your fears and vulnerabilities? What lessons did you take away from the experience?
Reflect on Julie’s encouragement to recognise and address feelings during everyday activities. How might integrating this practice into your daily routine enhance your overall emotional wellbeing and the quality of your relationships?
Recall a time when you were navigating anxiety or big emotions. How did you handle that moment, and what strategies did you use to trust in your capacity to manage those feelings effectively?
Parenting styles can greatly influence our attachment patterns. Reflect on Julie's parenting approach after finding traditional advice lacking. How has the upbringing you experienced influenced your perception of emotional safety and attachment in your own parenting or in your intimate relationships?
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Check out my couples course, Secure Together (& save $200 with the code SECURE)
Save $150 on my Higher Love break-up course with the code PHOENIX
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
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Episode Transcript
Stephanie Rigg [00:00:04]:
For today's episode, I am so excited to be joined by Julie Manano, who many of you will know as the brains and the heart behind the hugely popular Instagram account, the secure relationship. Julie is a couple's therapist and she's just published her first book, Secure Love, which is now out and available. Julie is such an incredible source of wisdom on all things attachment and by far my favourite content creator in this area. So I was so, so delighted to have her on the show and I'm really looking forward to sharing this conversation with you, which is all about how couples can use an understanding of themselves and attachment and these dynamics to overcome the cycles that they get stuck in and how you can really start building bridges towards a more secure love with one another. So I have no doubt that this conversation will be hugely helpful for so many of you and I'm really looking forward to sharing it with you.
Stephanie Rigg [00:01:34]:
Julie, welcome. It's so great to have you.
Julie Menanno [00:01:37]:
Hi, Stephanie. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Stephanie Rigg [00:01:41]:
So I absolutely want to talk about your new book, which I'm very excited to receive and read when it comes out. But before we jump into that, I would really love. I'm sure a lot of people listening follow you online, your account, and appreciate your content as much as I do. Something that I really value in your work is that you do such a great job at articulating the fears and the vulnerabilities that sit underneath the attachment styles and the behaviours that we see outwardly, which it's easy to be critical of or judgmental of some of the ways that these fears and vulnerabilities manifest outwardly, particularly when we're in relationship with someone and we're on either side of that.
Julie Menanno [00:02:34]:
Oh, yeah, so hard.
Stephanie Rigg [00:02:37]:
Maybe you could share for people. I mean, I think most people listening will be familiar with each of the attachment styles, but kind of going a layer deeper and sharing. What are some of those deeper fears, which oftentimes I think one of the beauties of your content is some of the things you put words to are things that people might not necessarily be consciously aware of very much in terms of their own. What is driving their behaviour so maybe you could just give a little bit of a feel for what sits underneath a lot of those behaviours for each of the insecure attachment styles.
Julie Menanno [00:03:13]:
Well, one thing that comes to mind is when we talk about anxious attachment, most people are kind of familiar with the idea that anxious attachment comes from this fear of abandonment. And when we hear the word abandonment, our minds just sort of go right to physical abandonment. Right. Which can be a real fear for someone with an anxious attachment, just that physical distance and not having lots of contact with their partner through the phone or through text or. However, because that physical proximity helps them feel safe. Like, if you're right there in front of me, I have this sense of safety in my body that you're not gone. Right. But there are also a lot of people with anxious attachment who actually don't really mind not being physically with their partner all the time.
Julie Menanno [00:04:06]:
And what they actually fear is emotional abandonment, which is probably a bigger piece of the puzzle for a lot of people, which is emotional abandonment is feeling emotionally validated, getting messages that your emotions are too much, or your emotions are unreasonable, or your emotions are illogical, or your emotions don't matter to me, which is huge. So what's really going to get someone with anxious attachment triggered is less. Well, I don't want to say less. For some people, we're going to see all of these posts about if they don't text back, things like that. Right. But there's this other piece of it where you hear from your partner, you're just making things up, or you know what? You need to deal with your feelings on your own, or you're seeing it all wrong, or you're just being dramatic. And so that's going to really trigger the heart of someone with an anxious attachment profoundly because of growing up in environments where those were the repeated messages, and that is emotional abandonment. And if you look at things like borderline personality disorder, which is this really extreme version of what I consider attachment insecurity, the only thing that's really common in studies to the childhood environment of people who develop borderline personality disorder, what would you think it would be? Serious abuse, something like this. But it's emotional invalidation. Just an environment of emotional invalidation is enough to create major problems.
Stephanie Rigg [00:06:01]:
Yeah, I love that you talk about emotional abandonment. It's something that I've spoken to before and I think that I can relate to it. Like, I lean more anxious and having that fear of, like, are you going to be there when I need you? Even though you're physically here, this sense of am I going to be left alone with these big feelings? Right. And I think that can be really terrifying. And when we see expressions of that various cycles in anxious avoidant dynamics, where you might have someone on the other side who goes the other way and withdraws or pulls away or becomes very defensive, then having that sense of I'm scrambling to try and get engagement from you. And even in this moment when my emotions are getting really big and I'm visibly distressed for you to still be kind of denying me what I need, that can feel like fuel on the fire. Right. It's no secret that I need you in this moment. So surely if you loved me, you would be responding to me the way I want you to respond. And I think, as you say, that can be really viscerally terrifying distressing for someone with more anxious attachment.
Julie Menanno [00:07:20]:
Definitely. And then we have this other side, which is the person who's not showing up. Right. And so what does it look like? It looks like they don't care. They're disengaged. It's irrelevant. I'm irrelevant to them. But really what's happening is they're getting overwhelmed with I don't know what to do. I never learned how to help myself in these emotionally hard places, so I really don't know how to help a partner. And the way that I did learn to help myself was to shove my feelings away, just make them go away or go into this fix it place in my brain. And so what I know to do to help you is what I've learned to do to help me. And really not recognising the impact of, well, you should just see it differently, or let's just do whatever I have to do to make these big emotions go away that I don't know how to deal with. And then eventually they get overwhelmed to the point that none of my strategies are working here, which doesn't make sense because they work with me.
Stephanie Rigg [00:08:27]:
Everything I say or don't say makes this worse. Right? Yes, exactly.
Julie Menanno [00:08:33]:
So then they shut down. It's like, where does this start? A chicken or the egg? It doesn't start anywhere, it just is as far as way they're interacting with each other.
Stephanie Rigg [00:08:46]:
Yeah. And it's something that I take very seriously in my work is not kind of creating a hierarchy of these different expressions and not, I think, particularly avoidant attachment gets a really bad rap in a lot of online content. And it's something that I'm really quite passionate about balancing that and giving people more kind of inroads into understanding that in a compassionate way and recognising everything that you just articulated makes perfect sense. Right. In the environment in which it sprung from, that's a really adaptive response.
Julie Menanno [00:09:31]:
It really is empowering. I think for somewhere along the line I'm not exactly sure where, but anxious partners got this idea that they have these needs, the avoidance can't show up for these needs and so it must be the avoidance that's the problem. But how disempowering is that? Right? To think that you really can't do anything, that you're just kind of a victim to what this other person is doing. So I love that you said you balance this out because it's so important because when anxious partners really start to learn there's a lot of work they can be doing to shift the environment, I think a much more empowering message.
Stephanie Rigg [00:10:11]:
I agree. I think that as much as it might be a hard pill to swallow for people to recognise their part in the dynamic and what they need to take responsibility for, I think that it's ultimately much more empowering place to be than kind of throwing your hands up and saying well, you just don't meet my needs or you always do this or I'm doing all the work and you're the roadblock. And I think coupled with the tendency for anxious folks to persist in light of all of those criticisms or judgments it's not like they're reaching a decision of this isn't working for me and walking away. It's like, this isn't working for me, but I'm going to sit here and protest about it.
Julie Menanno [00:10:53]:
Exactly. I'm going to keep watering the plant with gasoline.
Stephanie Rigg [00:10:56]:
Yeah, exactly. And then feeling really frustrated and overwhelmed. Does this keep happening to me?
Julie Menanno [00:11:03]:
She can water the plant with gasoline?
Stephanie Rigg [00:11:05]:
Yeah, absolutely. So maybe we can pivot to talking about your book secure love, which is probably by the time this episode comes out, will be out in the world. So anyone listening, please go ahead and order a copy. If you haven't already. Tell us about the book. What's kind of the premise? What do you take people through?
Julie Menanno [00:11:25]:
Well, I wrote it for a lot of different reasons and every time I'm interviewed I give another different reason. Whatever comes to mind. But I have seen a lot of success in doing the type of work that I do with couples, working with attachment theory and my private practise and when I started my Instagram account, which is where I started putting out information, where I was starting from is, look, there are a lot of people out there who just don't have access to couples therapy and don't have access to quality couples therapy. And how can I kind of help people that are in that position in the best way possible through social media platform and kind of tie attachment theory altogether? Like, let's put it into context. You have an anxious attachment, you get your partner has an avoidant attachment. Now, how does it show up between the two of you? And more importantly, how is it creating these negative communication cycles, which is basically the anxious attachment partner being anxious and the avoidant attachment partner being avoidant? And now they're reinforcing all of these insecurities. They're speaking in a way that can go from kind of a normal conversation into a big fight and they're not getting problem solved. Those kinds of negative cycles block actual resolution to our talk about finances or our talk about parenting or sex or politics or whatever it is.
Julie Menanno [00:12:57]:
And in the process, they're also hurting each other emotionally and reinforcing the already insecure attachment. So I'm kind of leading with, hey, here's attachment theory. Here's a very detailed description of anxious attachment, the childhood environment, how it looks in adulthood, here's how it shows up in these negative cycles. Here's what you can do to interrupt them when they happen, here's what you can do to prevent them, here's what you can do to repair them. And then just lots of practical skills, lots of actual words, scripts, if you don't have the words and you haven't learned these words yet, it's just a concept. And it can be really hard for people to put concepts into actions, especially in these moments when they're kind of like on the spot and you got to say it the right way. And then some couples are blocked by attachment injuries, which is something I have to work within my practise too, which is kind of like these added layers of attachment wounds, major breaches of trust. Moments when you really needed your partner to show up for you and they weren't there.
Julie Menanno [00:14:10]:
And a lot of times these old wounds are blocking their ability to even put New practises into place, put new communication into place, because there's all this resentment and mistrust built up. So then I'm going to kind of say, hey, here are some ideas, here are the way that healing conversations go. Here's what a healing conversation looks like. Now that you've kind of learned to do that outside of these negative cycles. Let's see if we can start healing some of this, which is only going to make the work easier, then just goes into just different other considerations, like mental illness, sex, substance abuse, anything that's kind of layers to relationships that are more than standard fighting about money. And then I have a whole chapter of scripts. Just, you need to bring up a hard topic to your partner. Here are some things to say.
Julie Menanno [00:15:08]:
Your partner doesn't want to go to therapy. Here are some things to say and just multiple examples just to give people the words. And it's not just the words, we need to make words our own. But I also break down the phrases into elements, which is, this is why I validated at the beginning of this sentence, this is why I ended it in this way. So if you're not wanting to use my words, and sometimes they aren't even my words, they're just as neutral as I can be for people who are reading the book that all speak from in different ways, different cultures, it's just like, well, let's just help you integrate the elements here.
Stephanie Rigg [00:15:50]:
Yeah, and I'm sure that's immensely helpful for people who, as you say, just don't have that reference point. Maybe they grew up in a family system where things weren't talked about or they weren't talked about in a productive way, and you've just not had that relational environment either directly or you've never had it modelled. So I think that having those scripts can be so helpful. Something that comes up for me, as you say, that is, I hear from a lot of people with more anxious patterns who very much want the scripts. And something that I'm always minded to add in as a caveat is here's a script and you kind of have to surrender a little to the messiness of being in relationship. And I think that there can be this sense of if I say the perfect thing in the perfect way, then I'll get the outcome that I want. And if I do my part, then you have to do your part, you have to respond in the way that I want you to. And if you don't, then I'll go straight back into, well, you're. The problem is that something that you.
Julie Menanno [00:16:57]:
See, I do address this pretty extensively in the book, which is this change really does need to come from your heart. If it's coming from a place of, well, I'm only doing this because I really want to control what you're going to do, then it's really not change at all. So we really have to shift that heart place, which is why I put the scripts at the end of the book, not the beginning.
Stephanie Rigg [00:17:20]:
Yeah, I think it is. It's funny it can almost be like a covert extension of the cycle when it is.
Julie Menanno [00:17:29]:
That's perfectly worded.
Stephanie Rigg [00:17:34]:
Rather than shifting it, there can be ways that that cycle can come back in. And I think that that is a really challenging edge for people. Something that I still notice come up and I have to keep tabs on is that story of like, one person trying extending the olive branch, and then if they still get some sort of defensiveness or their partner doesn't immediately become a different person and respond totally differently, then it can spiral back. What would you say to people in that, like, kind of realistic expectations around how this change happens?
Julie Menanno [00:18:13]:
Well, I do address, this is another topic I do address extensively in the book, which is we're looking at the big picture here. We're looking for the end. This is a long game. When you start this work, there really are no guarantees that you can put the right term coin into the vending machine and push the button and you're going to get the bag of chips. Right. We have to look at it. The mindset has to be one. I really want to be the person.
Julie Menanno [00:18:44]:
I want to be in the world, right. I want to be a person who can communicate myself in the healthiest way possible, can kind of regulate my emotions before I deliver my messages. And if you look at it that way, you can't lose, right? Because every time you try something new that's going to help you grow as a person, that's a win, even if your partner doesn't respond in the exact way that you would like. Now, of course, we all really need and want for the relationship to be close, for our partner to be able to respond openly and positively to our shifts. But in most cases, that's not going to happen right away. It's a matter of environmental shift. Second order change. So first order change is I'm just going to start delivering my messages in a new way.
Julie Menanno [00:19:40]:
Second order change is when the environment starts to become new and you have to do a lot of consistent, repetitive first order change before second order change starts to become a natural way of being for both partners. And most of the couples out there that are working, they aren't necessarily working parallel to each other, growing at the exact same rate. So your job as a partner isn't to kind of make your partner grow. You want your partner to grow. You crave your partner's growth. You need your partner's growth for closeness in the relationship. But your real job is to do your part to clean up the environment. And when we have clean environments, and if one partner can start kind of getting the ball rolling on that process and putting emotional safety into the relationship even when the other partner isn't able to.
Julie Menanno [00:20:38]:
Right. Then people are their best selves when they feel safe. People start to reflect when they feel safe. So if your partner is going. I refuse to go to couples therapy. Couples therapy is for people who are about to get divorced. The typical anxious response to that is, what? You don't care about the relationship? I'm the only one doing the work here. Right.
Julie Menanno [00:20:59]:
Well, that's not really safe because it's not really taking into account the other partner's very legitimate concerns. If the other partner has this idea that if we go to couples therapy, we're going to end up getting divorced. Because I've have numerous examples of people in my life who are divorced who went to couples therapy. So my nervous system is kind of wired around the idea that this wasn't safe. That needs to be held and validated, right? Yes. The ultimate goal is to get the help. I want that for the couple as much as the anxious partner. But that avoidant partner really needs space to hear.
Julie Menanno [00:21:41]:
You know what? That makes sense to me. It really does. I mean, I believe that we should go to couples therapy. We're in a bad spot. We can't seem to get out of it on our own. But at the same time, if you have seen multiple people go to couples therapy and end up getting divorced, of course you don't want to go down that road. That's a threat to you. And I really do get that.
Julie Menanno [00:22:03]:
And then maybe some space later to kind of insert your opinion that is going to lead that avoidant partner into self reflect. There's a much better chance it's going to lead them into self reflection more than just pushing their needs to the side. And then what do people do? They usually double down.
Stephanie Rigg [00:22:23]:
Yeah, that's a lot. Sorry. I think that. No, it's really important, and it's something that I was going to ask you about, like this idea of almost invariably there's one partner who's more proactive and wants to do the work and has certain meanings associated with that. And I think for more anxious people, it's like, because I care about our relationship, it's very important to get ahead of all of the problems. It'd be plugging all of even the tiniest little leaky hole in the boat. Let's talk about it and make a plan and do it all the time. Right.
Stephanie Rigg [00:22:56]:
Process for more avoidant partners, like doing the work can have a very different meaning and association. And it can feel like there's always something wrong, there's always something wrong, and you're always unhappy with me, and we deal with that thing and there's another thing and that can kind of chip away at their sense of self, their sense of like, am I doing a good job as your partner? And when there's just really different conceptions of what it means to do this kind of work in a relationship, what it means about you as individuals, what it means about your connection, then I think when we project what it means for us onto them and go, well, it's important to me to do this work because I care about our relationship so much and you don't want to do it, so you mustn't care about our relationship, then we cause ourselves a lot of pain, right? Whereas I think when we can, and it's so much easier said than done in those moments of hurt and when we're so genuinely invested in a solution that we believe is the right one, but validating someone's resistance or defensiveness and getting curious about it and going, okay, what must this be about for you? What might be underneath your resistance? And how can I feel into that in a way that I can try and understand it rather than just making you wrong for it? Because I think, as you say, it's like if I make you wrong for it, is that going to open you or close you? It's going to close you, and that's going to get me again, we don't want to be always acting from a place of getting what we want from someone. But I think you can also look at that and go, what's the natural consequence of me blaming and shaming you for the way that you genuinely feel about this thing? That's a really big issue. I think someone doubling down, as you say, and digging their heels in, that's a really understandable, natural consequence of feeling like you're under attack. And I can also imagine you as a couple's therapist that a lot of people with more avoidant patterns would have this fear of, like, you're going to kind of drag me to the principal's office and sit me down and have someone just bolster your side of the argument. So I'm going to be under attack on multiple fronts.
Julie Menanno [00:25:23]:
That is so true. And I could have used that as an example, and I definitely use that in the book, too, which is their avoidant partners or anybody who doesn't want to go to therapy, they have really good reasons for not wanting to go it doesn't mean at the end of the day, sometimes the conversation at some point might need to get to look, this relationship is in a really bad spot. It's not working for me and we're either going to have to go or I don't know what, but kind of setting a little bit more of a firmer boundary around it. But we need to just lead with just figuring out and validating your perspective because it makes sense on some level. Even if it's. I don't agree. I don't agree with your opinion. The emotions behind that opinion are always valid. And to your point, when you're approaching it in that way, you are actually working on the relationship.
Stephanie Rigg [00:26:24]:
Yeah. And I think that being able to have that conversation and say I understand why this feels, might feel a certain way for you. For me, I've seen you reference this before and I talk about it as well. It's like shifting into that. This is a problem that we are facing together. Right. The things that exist in our relationship feel bigger than our ability to solve them at the moment. And clearly what we're doing isn't working and it's tiring and it's exhausting speaking to some of those what are likely to be shared experiences of the problem.
Stephanie Rigg [00:27:08]:
This really sucks. I hate feeling disconnected from you all the time. I hate feeling like we're always at each other's throats and I just don't know what to do anymore because it feels like the things we're trying aren't working. And I think that shifting into that immediately just brings the temperature down a bit.
Julie Menanno [00:27:25]:
It really does, like you said, opens people up. And I'm in the business of behaviour change, but I'm in the business of getting to that behaviour change with open hearts. And that comes from communicating in a healthy way. There's no way around it.
Stephanie Rigg [00:27:45]:
Yeah, I think, as you say, it's about creating safety and I think we have to really have that at front of mind at all points in relationship is the thing that I'm about to do. All of my default modes of being in relationship is that likely to contribute to or detract from the safety of the person that I'm in relationship with or the broader environment and culture of our relationship. And I think when we ask ourselves that and kind of pause and cheque in so many of the things that we do on autopilot, if we have more insecure patterns, wouldn't pass that test. They're about our safety, but from a very survival driven place that's probably not well suited to the kind of relationship that we really desire and are trying to build.
Julie Menanno [00:28:36]:
Absolutely, yes. It's actually blocking that relationship that you're longing for.
Stephanie Rigg [00:28:42]:
Yeah. So something that I'm curious about is how much of this work do you think in terms of insecure attachment and repairing and moving towards a more secure relationship? Is that work that you think people can do solely in a relational context, or is it doing your own work and doing it relationally? Is it sort of just whatever presents itself to you is an opportunity to do that work?
Julie Menanno [00:29:12]:
I think so. I think that probably the most effective way to look at it is every interaction with a person. It doesn't really matter if it's the clerk at the market or your partner. Every interaction has the potential to trigger you. Right. And it's your triggers. That's where the work lies, is when you're triggered. And ultimately the work is when you're triggered.
Julie Menanno [00:29:41]:
What are you going to do from that point? Are you going to do something? Are you going to snap at the clerk at the market and then feel bad about yourself for the rest of the day? Are you going to snap at the clerk in the market and then forgive yourself and help yourself make sense of that and think about what you may have done differently? Are you going to take that moment when the clerk snaps at you and step inside and take a moment to go, what's going on with me? Okay, I'm feeling kind of disrespected right now, but I'm going to choose to not show up in a way that I don't want to be in the world. And so if we just take that into the relationship, I mean, every interaction gives you the opportunity to grow. Every interaction. But you don't need to be in a romantic relationship to examine your triggers. We have relationships with family members. We have relationships with friends. I do think it's important to have someone in your life that's a secure attachment for you, whether that's a therapist or someone that you meet at an Al Anon group or a friend who is dependable and can be there for you in kind of a good enough way. When we get that dependability and that support, that emotional support, it's co regulating to our nervous systems, and it does help us grow as a person. Right. But I think it's like you said, you're taking every opportunity to grow and to start doing things differently with your feelings.
Stephanie Rigg [00:31:19]:
Yeah. And a lot of it is really kind of mundane and unglamorous. Right. I think that people expect healing to be this big, dramatic moment of epiphany. But as you say, it's just like chipping away. It's like putting a coin in the jar a day at a time.
Julie Menanno [00:31:38]:
I go on walks with my dog and I start noticing these feelings of, like, I just want this. Normally, I love walking, but sometimes I'll think, I just want to get all this stuff done. I wish this walk was over. And that's an opportunity for me to cheque in and say, what's going on right now? That this sense of urgency is getting in my way of enjoying this walk, enjoying this time out here and being present in nature. And that can help me sort of reground myself. And now the walk becomes this more pleasurable experience, instead of just getting in the way of my compulsive need to work. So how does that show up in my relationship? Well, I have just taken that moment to practise getting into my body, finding that sense of urgency that kind of shows up in my chest, paying attention to that, soothing it, and then kind of being able to go into a different place in my heart where I'm more present. So the next time my husband triggers me, I have had that practise going into my body like that.
Julie Menanno [00:32:45]:
And now, because I've practised that in these other parts of life, it's easier for me to step back and go, all right, what's going on? What about what he said is kind of stirring me up inside? And how can I kind of ground myself and get more present and show up in the healthiest way possible? That's not going to lead us down this rabbit hole of a negative cycle.
Stephanie Rigg [00:33:06]:
Yeah, I love that you share that. I think having that capacity to pause, and it is such a practise just to pause and go, how interesting that this thing is stirring this response in me. And I think as soon as we do that, we sort of rise above it and we create that distance that allows us to observe it, and then maybe gently question it, and it just feels less all consuming and true. And I think when it feels less all consuming and true, then we're not so propelled to just act from that place, which so often, as you say, is this kind of heightened, dysregulated place of I have to do something or something dissociative. But it's just like I lose the ability to kind of bring myself back when I can't see what's happening. And so whether it's like walking the dog or waking up in the morning and noticing some anxiety, being able to turn towards that with a level of, like, interesting. I'm feeling anxious today. What might that be about for me, and what do I need? How can I support myself to feel a little bit more grounded or a little safer in my body or whatever it might be? I think that process is so repairing in our own self relationship. Right. It's like, oh, I can tend to myself in those uncomfortable moments or those big moments.
Julie Menanno [00:34:36]:
Even when what's going on around me might not be perfect, I'm still able to stay with myself, and I think this is important too. And you kind of touched on this earlier, which is, these are subtle shifts. Right. My walk isn't going from, oh, my gosh, I just want to get home to, oh, Zen. This is such a glorious walk. It's just going into this step of a little bit more present. And I think sometimes people do this work and they kind of expect to go from one extreme to the other, and we're really not. We're just trying to feel better. Whatever better looks like it isn't this glamorous big shift. Sometimes it's just more subtle.
Stephanie Rigg [00:35:22]:
Healed.
Julie Menanno [00:35:23]:
Yes.
Stephanie Rigg [00:35:23]:
Congratulations. Yeah, I think that's true. Such a big part of it is, like, changing the way we relate to ourselves and our feelings as well. I work mostly with anxiously attached people, and it's like, on the other side of this work. Does that mean I won't experience anxiety anymore in my relationship? It's like, sadly not. That's a human thing. But I think just, like, having a level of openness to the full spectrum of experience and the messiness of being human and being in relationships. And I think really critically, like, trusting in our capacity to hold ourselves through that and to navigate whatever that might look like rather than fearing the big emotions because we don't trust ourselves to experience them and we think, oh, no, if that happens, I won't be okay. And so I have to just frantically try and prevent any of those, and.
Julie Menanno [00:36:23]:
Then it's just such an exhausting way to live.
Stephanie Rigg [00:36:25]:
Yeah, absolutely. And it's kind of ironically, your whole life becomes about the thing you don't want to happen. Right. It takes up so much bandwidth.
Julie Menanno [00:36:36]:
It does. And then you've created the self fulfilling prophecy because you're having a hard time trusting your future self to handle when things don't go well. And if we can do nothing else in our line of work, it's helping people develop that trust. I can learn to handle my own feelings.
Stephanie Rigg [00:36:58]:
Yeah. And just kind of surrendering to the uncertainty of it. All right. Even secure healthy relationships are going to have hard times and they're going to have bumps in the road. And I think having this very idealistic perception of if I can again, control for all of these things and I'm going to eliminate, totally derisk my relationship to the point where I won't have to ever feel hurt or disappointed or any of those things, I won't ever have trust broken. And that's the bar that we're setting, I think, again, is unrealistic and it's really setting ourselves up to fail.
Julie Menanno [00:37:41]:
We are. And the growth lies in the ruptures. Right. I would never want couples to not have ruptures because that's how they learn to kind of take it to that next step. Maybe this is a topic that we haven't been addressing and so now it's kind of overwhelming our coping mechanisms and we kind of got lost in that negative cycle not being our best selves. Well, coming back together in that repair process opens up space for the vulnerability that was tapped into that might be surrounding this hard topic, deeper layers of our fears and who we are. And it provides opportunity to bond and become stronger.
Stephanie Rigg [00:38:29]:
Yeah, absolutely.
Julie Menanno [00:38:31]:
When I see couples, I see these patterns and they're going along and their relationship is getting better and then all of a sudden, out of nowhere they're feeling so confident and out of nowhere they have this big fight. And almost always, once we work through whatever that big fight was, there's a big growth spurt.
Stephanie Rigg [00:38:53]:
Yeah. I think it's also like giving ourselves a lot of grace and not treating that fight as like, oh, it's a major regression in the trajectory that we've been on. I think recognising the absolute inevitability of these ruptures and kind of working that into our expectation of what it means to be in relationship with someone. Because it's messy. Right. It's like two people coming together with all of their own stuff and kind of two lives and we're trying to build something together. Like, of course we're going to stumble. Of course the person I want to stumble with and get up with and kind of do that messy work of rebuilding, I think that's really the much healthier mindset around it, rather than really.
Julie Menanno [00:39:41]:
Is it so much more realistic and the expectations are more appropriate and it's like, as long as we don't want that messiness to take over the relationship and define the climate, there's so much value in that messiness. So much value. Yeah, I mean, a lot of the partners that I see some of them are actually struggling, not so much because they grew up in a high conflict household, but because they grew up in a no conflict household. So now they get into a relationship with more of a norm, which is, hey, we don't see eye to eye about everything. And so what they experienced growing up was that usually it was like, one partner who was making all the decisions. And the reason that there wasn't conflict is because one partner had all the power in the relationship, or they switched power. But still, somehow, this couple, these parents, managed to just not have overt conflict. So what happens to someone who doesn't experience their own parents having rupture and repair, then now they think that these ruptures that are now happening in my relationship, there must be something wrong. They have very little skills to actually repair the situation. So we do want some adversity.
Stephanie Rigg [00:41:03]:
Yeah, I think that's a really important point. It's something I can relate to. In my family. There wasn't a lot of loud conflict fighting, but I was definitely acutely aware of when there was tension.
Julie Menanno [00:41:16]:
And that can be really hard.
Stephanie Rigg [00:41:18]:
Yeah. And I think that that then, for me, has I developed in that environment where I'm now very sensitive to energetic shifts in a dynamic and can experience those. And I've had to do a lot of work around it, like, experience those as really threatening and as some precursor to something very bad, something that's really going to rock the boat. And that feels quite threatening to my system. And so having to kind of disentangle all of that body memory that says, like, oh, this is bad. And you need to kind of get on the front foot and figure out what the problem is and stop it before it becomes something bigger. There's a lot of really, just as.
Julie Menanno [00:42:05]:
You talk, I'm just feeling that anxiety in my system when you're in those situations and, you know, there's this tension, but it's not being talked about. Sometimes that can feel worse than actually hearing people fight.
Stephanie Rigg [00:42:20]:
Absolutely. And I think it does create that hyper vigilance, too, the elephant in the room. And it's something that still now, really, I have such a strong reaction to is, like, there's a thing that's being avoided. There's a conversation that's being avoided or an issue that's being avoided. And I have such a visible reaction to that perception because it has all of the weight of that history behind it.
Julie Menanno [00:42:48]:
Well, what's coming to mind? It's interesting. I'm sure you're familiar with the strange situation. The original, I don't know if you remember this piece, but the children who were labelled as anxious attachment were crying and they were kind of inconsolable when they got triggered. And the mom was kind of anxiously trying to calm them down, but it took an extended period of time compared to the babies with secure attachment. The avoidant children, on the other hand, were just blank. They didn't show much emotion at all. They weren't showing any signs of distress, they just kept playing with the toys. But it was the avoidant children who were more physiologically aroused, even more so than the anxious children.
Julie Menanno [00:43:30]:
So there is something to be said for at least with anxious attachment, that energy is somewhat getting expelled. Not that it's all got its downsides in different ways, but I'm just thinking of you sitting there as a child and know you didn't grow up in this high conflict home, but yet you still have this sense of anxiety and it probably took you a while in your life, I'm guessing, to recognise, hey, that was painful, too.
Stephanie Rigg [00:43:58]:
Yeah, absolutely. I think having that, being able to really honestly look at the environments that we grew up in, not in a way that's trying to lay blame or create a trauma that wasn't there, but to go, oh, okay, yeah, that had an impact. That kind of makes sense that this grew from that and that I adapted in that way and that made a lot of sense in that environment. But maybe that's not serving me well in this new environment that I'm trying to create. I think finding that middle road is really valuable in doing this work and having more context for ourselves and the way that we show up in relationships.
Julie Menanno [00:44:41]:
So true. I love how you said you're not looking for problems, but you are looking at the problems that might still be alive today. And I say this in the book, too. It's like, look, I'm not trying to take away your happy childhood memories or your love for your parents at all. All of it can be true. You can look at your child and say, hey, I was basically a happy kid. I felt loved, I felt supported. And here are some things that maybe didn't go well that are still kind of getting.
Julie Menanno [00:45:14]:
That are getting in my way in this relationship. And some people have the other experience where they're like, no, it was absolutely awful. I felt horrible. All of it can be true. There's no one thing that we can say. You have to have this set of trauma in order to be suffering now.
Stephanie Rigg [00:45:35]:
Yeah, that provides a nice segue. I was going to finish by asking you a very self interested question, because I know that you have. Do you have five kids?
Julie Menanno [00:45:45]:
Six kids.
Stephanie Rigg [00:45:47]:
Six kids. I'm six months pregnant with my first. It is very exciting. I'm very curious to ask you, coming from all of this work, and obviously with having six kids, what would you say is kind of attachment? How has doing this work, I suppose influenced the way that you have approached being a parent?
Julie Menanno [00:46:12]:
Well, it dramatically influenced the way that I am a parent. I mean, just dramatically. I mean, I started off in a really bad foot. This information wasn't available to me. I was not in the field at the time. I did not grow up in a home with much positive modelling and lots of stuff there. So when I had my first son, I was just dead set on figuring it all out. But I was reading all these parenting books, which this was 2001, so they weren't as progressed as they are now. And a lot of them were just kind of giving different contradictory information. I felt like an absolute mess. I did not know what I was doing and I definitely did not get at all the emotional support piece. In my mind, it was like, you create a structured environment, you send them to the right school, you feed them a really healthy diet. I was a stay at home mom and you just kind of put all these things into the recipe and everything works out. But my kids were really lacking in emotional support until I went a little bit before going back to grad school. I started discovering work on self compassion and that was a real shift for me. And then from there, that got me into attachment theory.
Julie Menanno [00:47:34]:
And before that I started doing more of that attachment parenting style, which seemed to be very helpful for me as far as bonding. But my kids are all teenager. Well, they're twelve to 22, so teenage, young, preteen to young adolescent. And the relationship that I have with my children is profoundly healthy. It is probably the biggest achievement I think, of my life, is what I have been able to create with my kids. I have it down. I know how to be emotionally supportive, I know how to be validating. I know how to get them to understand themselves on a deeper level. And for anyone out there who has kids that you have had strained relationships with, or you feel guilty because you hear all this attachment information and we're always sort of blaming the parents, right? There is a way to turn it around. Just keep going with this information, keep going with learning. Truly, it all boils down to learning how to be emotionally supportive. And I hope I answered your question.
Stephanie Rigg [00:48:49]:
Yeah, no, absolutely. It's funny I wanted to ask you because people have been asking me, and while I have my ideas about how I plan to approach parenting, knowing what I know about this work, I'm also very ready to be humbled because I think that going into it, ideals are one thing, and I'm sure the reality of it will be challenging and beautiful and surprising in so many ways. Something that I keep coming back to for myself is like safety, factual safety versus the perception of safety. And I think for babies, infants, children, the perception of safety, and frankly, adults is so much more rich and important in having that really felt sense of security. And I think so much kind of more traditional parenting stuff is just about like, is the baby factually safe? Right? Do they have their physical needs met? Rather than all of that emotional nurturance and validation which is like, do you feel that? Do you perceive yourself to be safe? And really leading with what would a child be wanting from me in order to feel safe in this moment with whatever behaviour they're presenting, I think is a really helpful kind of North Star on a lot of decisions around that.
Julie Menanno [00:50:12]:
It's so true. We really do need to put emotions first. And I think in this culture we're putting achievements first, we're putting school first, we're putting sports first, and even maybe physical health sometimes first, which is, as we know, all those things are wonderful and important. But what needs to happen first is emotional safety. Truly, the parents that I've worked with throughout the years that have become parents as we're doing this work or after they've done all this work, just goes my blanket. I have seen them be very successful from day one, so there is hope, you know, so much. I just want to reassure you that what I see is that people who are going into parenting doing this work, that the experience is just so pleasurable for them because they get to feel so successful. And for me, when I had my first, I was learning, oh, you have to let them cry it out.
Julie Menanno [00:51:17]:
They've got to be on this sleep schedule. I mean, to this day I have PTSD symptoms around listening to my son cry, I just. Horrible memories. With my third, I learned this attachment parenting where I was carrying her in a sling and sleeping with her. And to me that was a beautiful experience. Not that everybody needs to take it that far, but for me that way of living was far less exhausting than the other way. I was getting sleep at night. I felt the felt sense of emotionals.
Julie Menanno [00:51:45]:
Everything just felt safe and right and then. Are you familiar with gober mate?
Stephanie Rigg [00:51:52]:
Yes.
Julie Menanno [00:51:53]:
Okay, so have you read his book on add scattered no, I haven't. Okay, well, there's a chapter in this book, kind of near the end about parenting, and it feels a little, I don't know if I want to say random, but it's a parenting style that he's bringing to life and describing that is exactly the way I've learned to parent. And whenever he's describing it in this book, in this add book, which it doesn't have to be about add at all, to me, that's the way to go, is that chapter of the graph latte book. And I have seen that way of being with children be so successful.
Stephanie Rigg [00:52:33]:
Yeah. A lot of his stuff around parenting really resonates. He has a section in his newest book, the myth of normal around parenting, and there's another one, hold on to your kids, which he co wrote with another guy, which is direct. Okay. Yeah, well, no, but he's so prolific that he really covers such a broad scope. But yeah, a lot of his stuff makes a lot of sense to me and everything.
Julie Menanno [00:53:00]:
You're going to be fine.
Stephanie Rigg [00:53:01]:
If you're already is hoping again, I'm very ready to be humbled, but I'm feeling better prepared than I certainly would have been without all of this work. It's an exciting time. Julie, where can people find you? I think I suspect a lot of people listening will already be familiar with you. But for those who aren't, what's the best way for them to engage more deeply with your work and stay connected with you?
Julie Menanno [00:53:30]:
Well, my home base, because this is where I kind of started putting this information out, is my Instagram account, which is at the secure relationship. I also have a website where you can go to just see my podcast that I've done, not mine, but guest appeared on. That is where you'll find links to the book. I do have a team of therapists working for me, coaches, actually, that work all over the globe. And then my book, secure love, which is now out, not as I speak. When this airs, you can find it anywhere. It's all over the world, lots of different places. But I always say we'll just go to Amazon and that seems like an easy one.
Julie Menanno [00:54:20]:
So, yeah, secure love by Julie Manano. I'm really proud. Really proud. I really think I've put something together that is going to really have a lot to give to the world, and that feels really good for me. But if you don't want to buy the book, definitely go to my Instagram account because all of the information is there. I mean, it's disjointed it's not as organised, but as you know, my posts are very lengthy, very much in depth. So Instagram account is an actual book, if you don't mind kicking around a lot and reading the same thing over and over.
Stephanie Rigg [00:54:54]:
Thanks, Julie. We'll link all of that in the show notes and absolutely, I think your Instagram is invaluable. But I also very much look forward to receiving a copy of the book. Julie, thank you so much for a beautiful conversation. It's been very insightful and I'm sure will be hugely valuable to everyone who is listening.
Julie Menanno [00:55:13]:
All right, well, great. Thanks for having me and congratulations and I'm so excited for you. Glowing. Now it makes.
Stephanie Rigg [00:55:21]:
Well, I think it's because it's the middle of summer here. People keep saying to me that I'm glowing and I think it's just like light sweat. But I'm happy to take the compliment on glowing, the word that is reserved for pregnant women.
Stephanie Rigg [00:55:35]:
Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com and if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again sooner.
Keywords from Podcast Episode
communication in relationships, emotional regulation, personal growth, first order change, second order change, emotional safety, validating concerns, anxious partners, avoidant partners, empathetic conversations, behaviour change, secure attachment, self-regulation, self-improvement, navigating emotions, self-trust, managing negative emotions, relationship adversity, conflict resolution, relationship growth, low-conflict upbringing, childhood impact on relationships, attachment theory, self-compassion, Gabor Maté, parenting advice, couples therapy, attachment styles, negative communication cycles, practical relationship skills