#243: How to Create Healthy, Balanced Relationships with Nedra Glover Tawwab
When we think about “dependency” in relationships, it often carries a negative connotation. We imagine clinginess, neediness, or losing ourselves in someone else.
But what if dependency—done well—is actually essential for healthy relationships?
In a recent conversation with therapist and bestselling author Nedra Glover Tawwab (inspired by her new book The Balancing Act), we explored what it really looks like to move out of relational extremes—like codependency or hyper-independence—and into something far more sustainable:
Healthy interdependence.
Let’s break down what that actually means—and how to start cultivating it.
The Two Extremes Most of Us Get Stuck In
Before we can understand balance, we have to understand what’s out of balance.
1. Hyper-Independence
This is the “I don’t need anyone” end of the spectrum.
It can look like:
Struggling to ask for help (even when you need it)
Automatically assuming others won’t show up for you
Feeling uncomfortable receiving support
Taking pride in doing everything yourself
And while it might look strong, it’s often rooted in earlier experiences of disappointment, neglect, or being forced to grow up quickly.
At some point, you learned:
“It’s safer to rely on myself than risk being let down.”
2. Codependency (Hyper-Dependence)
On the other end, we have over-reliance on others.
This can look like:
Over-functioning or rescuing others
Tying your identity to being needed
Staying in unhealthy dynamics to maintain connection
Feeling responsible for other people’s emotions or outcomes
Here, the underlying belief is often:
“If I take care of everything (and everyone), I’ll be loved and won’t be abandoned.”
The Common Thread: Loneliness
Ironically, both extremes often lead to the same place:
Disconnection.
The hyper-independent person isn’t receiving
The codependent person isn’t being met
In both cases, your needs aren’t actually being fulfilled.
What Healthy Dependency Actually Looks Like
So what’s the alternative?
Healthy interdependence sits in the middle—and it’s far more nuanced than most people expect.
It looks like:
Being able to ask for help—and receive it
Having multiple sources of support (not just one person)
Maintaining your individuality within relationships
Adapting how you show up depending on the relationship
Allowing relationships to evolve rather than making all-or-nothing decisions
It’s not about becoming less connected.
It’s about becoming more resourced.
Why This Is Harder Than It Sounds
If you’re thinking, “Okay, that all sounds great—but also kind of uncomfortable?”
You’re right.
Because healthy dependency requires something many of us actively avoid:
Vulnerability.
It means:
Asking for help and risking a “no”
Letting people show up (instead of assuming they won’t)
Expressing needs without controlling how they’re met
Accepting people’s limitations without over-personalizing them
And for a lot of people, that feels riskier than just defaulting to old patterns.
You Don’t Need One Person to Be Everything
One of the most powerful shifts in this conversation is this:
No single person is meant to meet all of your needs.
And yet, especially in romantic relationships, we often expect exactly that.
We want our partner to be:
Our emotional support
Our social life
Our sounding board
Our adventure partner
Our therapist
Our everything
That’s a lot of pressure for one relationship to carry.
Instead, healthy dependency looks like diversifying your support system:
Friends for emotional processing
Other friends for fun or shared interests
Community connections for belonging
A partner who contributes meaningfully—but isn’t responsible for everything
This doesn’t weaken your relationship.
It actually makes it more sustainable.
Boundaries Aren’t About Controlling Other People
Another key theme in this conversation is how we think about boundaries.
A lot of people approach boundaries like this:
“Here’s what you need to do differently.”
But that only works if the other person cooperates.
Instead, real boundaries sound more like:
“Here’s what I will do if this continues.”
For example:
Not ending a friendship—but changing how you engage with it
Not cutting someone off—but adjusting your expectations
Not forcing change—but choosing your response
This shift puts you back in your agency, instead of leaving you stuck trying to manage someone else’s behaviour.
Stop Over-Explaining People’s Behaviour
Something else that often keeps us stuck?
Over-indexing on why people behave the way they do.
Yes, context matters. Compassion matters.
But at a certain point, you also have to look at:
Is this behaviour workable for me?
Because you can understand someone’s past, their stress, their limitations…
…and still decide:
This doesn’t feel good
This isn’t sustainable
Something needs to change
Healthy dependency requires both:
Compassion and
Self-respect
The “Wise Effort” Shift
One of the most practical takeaways from Nedra’s work is the idea of wise effort:
Not everything deserves the same level of energy.
Instead of showing up the same way in every relationship, ask:
Where is my energy actually reciprocated?
Where is it appreciated?
Where is it effective?
That might mean:
Not over-giving to people who don’t value it
Not offering advice to people who never take it
Not expecting certain things from people who can’t give them
And instead:
Redirecting your energy where it does land
The Part No One Wants to Hear
If you want more secure, balanced relationships…
You will have to do things that feel unnatural.
That might look like:
Asking for help when you’d rather do it yourself
Letting someone support you instead of shutting down
Not over-giving when you feel anxious about connection
Reaching out instead of withdrawing
Because here’s the truth:
If you keep following your familiar instincts, you’ll keep creating familiar outcomes.
Growth requires new behaviours—even when they feel uncomfortable.
Final Thoughts: You’re Allowed to Do Relationships Differently
Healthy dependency isn’t about getting it perfect.
It’s about:
Being flexible
Being honest
Being willing to try something new
Because you are capable of change.
And often, the difference between feeling stuck in your relationships and feeling supported in them…
…is simply being willing to show up in a new way.
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Stephanie Rigg [00:01:00]:
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I am joined by Nedra Glover-Tawwab, who is a licenced therapist and best-selling author, and we are talking all about how to create healthy dependency in our relationships. Nedra has written several books now—Set Boundaries, Find Peace, Drama Free—and today's conversation is inspired by her most recent release, The Balancing Act. So if you're someone who has struggled with patterns of either self-abandonment and codependency on one end or hyper-independence on the other, or you've been in relationship with anyone who exhibits those patterns, I think you'll find today's discussion really helpful in mapping out what does a middle ground look like between those two extremes. And I think many of you will really enjoy today's conversation because it's not exclusively talking about romantic relationships. We actually talk a lot about friendship, community relationships, and family relationships as well. So it really is a conversation for everyone, and I trust that you'll get a lot out of it. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Nedra Glover-Tawag.
Stephanie Rigg [00:02:09]:
Nedra, thank you so much for being here with me. So today we're going to be talking all about healthy interdependency, what it looks like to find that balance in ourselves and in our relationships, which is all part of your new book, The Balancing Act. I wonder if you can maybe frame the discussion for us by Giving a bit of a picture of this spectrum from unhealthy extremes of dependency, or as you frame it in the book, like hyper-independency on one end, hyper-dependency or codependency on the other, and then this healthy middle. Maybe you can walk us through what those two extremes look like and then what we should be striving for.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:02:49]:
Yeah, I think when we think of healthy dependency, I was speaking with someone and it was like, it sounds like an oxymoron because the word dependency in and itself sounds bad, right? We're depending on people, and it's a very healthy thing. We always have depended on people, and we always will. There is no autonomous us, right? There are people bringing us groceries, food, all the things are with people. The challenge with dependency is when we operate at either end of the spectrum. So one end might be us being hyper-independent, where we are doing most things on our own. We seem to be without help. And we are unfortunately comfortable being a do-it-yourselfer and having very low community or support in those instances sometimes. And then the other end of the spectrum is where we are hyperdependent.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:03:51]:
And that's where you see the codependency, which is being in a relationship with someone who has some toxic thing going on that you're trying to uphold, help them through, help them push past and you have life effects as a result of it, or some enmeshment where you are perhaps deeply connected to someone but unable to have any space in that connection. So either end of the spectrum can be unhealthy for us. And our healthy space is like right in the middle, if not those grey areas. I will say that with— with codependency, what I see most often is people take it on as an identity. Yeah. And it becomes something that they do in a lot of relationships, not just one relationship. It's like a repeating cycle of codependent connections. And whether you are codependent, enmeshed, or hyper-independent, there tends to be a high level of loneliness because you're not getting what you need in those relationships.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:04:57]:
The person who needs everything from you typically doesn't have a lot to give in a codependent connection. The person who does everything alone typically is not receiving anything from other people. So either end of that spectrum is troubling for us.
Stephanie Rigg [00:05:14]:
So how do we end up in those places? Because I can imagine that there's a reason for it, that it's an adaptation. So what is— what are we adapting to when we become codependent or hyper-independent? What purpose is it serving?
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:05:32]:
I think we are trying to seek connection, but it's just not going to be there in that relationship because that person can't offer it. So it doesn't mean you need to leave that relationship necessarily. It just means that you need other people as well. You need to find some sources of support for connection, but you're not going to get it in this codependent dynamic. So if you fill your life with this codependent relationship, You will feel lonely, but if you can maybe have that relationship and 7 other healthy ones, I think we can feel better in our connections with people, even if we're not getting it from this one source. Yeah.
Stephanie Rigg [00:06:12]:
It lowers the stakes a little. It's like more legs propping up the table rather than being so laser-focused on this one dynamic and relationship as being everything and giving me all of my worth and value and identity. Yes. Yeah, exactly. And at the other end, what, what does the hyper-independence emerge in response to? Like, how do we learn that and why do we learn it?
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:06:36]:
Hyper-independence, I think, comes from possibly being disappointed by people, not having those supports there to really rely on and having to figure it out for yourself, or even getting some messages around, you can figure it out and being praised for that because there are some of us who are praised for being do-it-yourselfers. If, you know, you had a parent that's pretty busy and, you know, they want you to do stuff by yourself, right? So they're like, great job, you got yourself ready. Good job. Keep doing it. And yeah, keep doing it, do it more. And then you just learn that, oh, I should be figuring things out. Like the support is not there for me. Sometimes we notice people in the world who just seem too busy to help us.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:07:21]:
Right? So it could be an overwhelmed partner, overwhelmed parent, overwhelmed friend, and we're like, they, they don't have the capacity. So I just have to stop asking. I can't have this need anymore. And so you, again, you learn to fulfil it yourself. So it comes from this deficiency in many cases, and it becomes part of our identity and something we claim as, I don't need a lot of people. I can do things on my own. I'm a loner. I like to have my space from things.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:07:52]:
But I think the unfortunate part of it is it creates, in some cases, a little bit of avoidance, right, to step outside of that comfort zone and let people in. Even when people try to help people who are hyper-independent, they have a really hard time accepting it. So there may be people who are saying, actually, I can help you. And you're like, no, no, I'll do it myself. Even though you may not have the capacity to do it, there's still this idea, I am capable of doing it, so I shouldn't.
Stephanie Rigg [00:08:24]:
And as you're describing the nuances of each of those extremes, I can see that I certainly have the capacity to go either way depending on the situation and the relationship. Is that something that you see? That is it correct to relate to these as strategies, or there being a level of fluidity that we move between them depending on who we're up against in a relationship, and that we might call for more hyper-independence if we don't maybe trust in the other person's capacity to, to meet our needs or to show up for us, that we don't want to take the risk. Or if a dynamic is that the other person's really high needs, and so we go into our caretaker rescuer thing. Does that make sense that we would move between strategies based on the, the context that we're in?
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:09:10]:
Yes, that there are some relationships where we may feel a higher sense of safety and feel more comfort with asking, and in other relationships, not so much. So we don't utilise those, those people, which, which makes some sense. I think the important part is to make sure you're not acquiring too many relationships where you can't have any needs, which sometimes we do, or sometimes we're underutilizing people who are actually available to help. We may assume that, oh my gosh, my friend just— they have 2 kids and they're not available. And, and I remember when I had a friend who had some kids and I didn't have any yet, she was like, I love when you invite me to stuff that's just for adults because I need that time away. So sometimes we are excluding people thinking, oh, they can't do it, when in actuality we need to just give them the opportunity to not be available or to not be able to help us.
Stephanie Rigg [00:10:08]:
It's more vulnerable that way though, isn't it? There's this risk factor that arises when we run the experiment because it might not always go the way that we'd hope. So I think in, in some ways, like, operating under assumptions or protecting ourselves by just doing the thing we've always done, it sort of brings me to when we talk about this, like, healthy middle ground. Oftentimes it sounds, when we describe it, really, like, rosy and easy and secure, happy days. But there's a vulnerability that comes with doing relationships in that way that is more balanced and healthy and open, because it involves risk.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:10:46]:
Yeah, yeah, it It does require us to put it all out there. And that can be so hard for some of us to lean into that vulnerability. Like, I completely get that. No one wants to be told no. I asked someone for something yesterday and they didn't respond until today. And so a little part of me was like, oh my gosh, what if they say no? And I'm like, I will survive the no and our relationship will. Because sometimes when people tell us no, they can't do something, we're like, I'm done with the relationship. I was sick one time and they didn't help me.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:11:23]:
That's it. And it's like, can they have another chance? Sometimes people aren't available and that's why it's important for us to have many people and not just one or two.
Stephanie Rigg [00:11:34]:
Yeah. I think that can be what you're describing there. It's like the overcorrection or the pendulum swing. And you've written a book about boundaries as well that can often happen, that trajectory from like maybe not having much by way of boundaries or having really porous boundaries. And then people, I think, come across this concept and start weaponizing it or wielding it, waving boundaries around like a machete and feeling like, you know, either you, you show up exactly as I want you to, or I cut you off. And again, I feel like It's the same theme of going from one extreme to another because we don't quite know how to do the middle thing.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:12:15]:
Yeah. I was, I was speaking on a podcast and I was sharing a storey about a friend who would RSVP for parties and maybe call or text and say, hey, I'm on the way. And she would never show up. Right. After she did that a few times, I stopped inviting her and we had a conversation around it. And I feel like I gave her another invite and the same sort of thing happened again. And I was like, okay. We're done with this.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:12:42]:
Not done with the friendship, but we're done with this iteration of you being invited to things and saying you're on your way, like this whole little thing that's going on. I'm not ending the relationship, right? I'm just saying that if I'm having a birthday party or a birthday dinner and I'm paying upfront money for these things, I don't want to waste my money on someone who has proven they will not show up by not being here multiple times, different years, different— so it's like, I'm not ending the relationship. And I think sometimes that's an important thing when we say things to people, because some things do sound final, right? I'm not ending this relationship. I'm just saying that this thing can no longer take place in it. We can go to dinner. We could do this. We could do that. But in terms of these big invites, you don't respect what needs to happen in these situations.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:13:37]:
And it's weird and it's rude.
Stephanie Rigg [00:13:40]:
Yeah, so it's like modifying the parameters rather than feeling like it needs to escalate to such an extreme.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:13:47]:
Yeah, maybe you don't like to come to stuff, and that's OK. That's OK if you don't like to come to things. I had a friend recently tell me, hey, you don't have to invite me to any group activities. I prefer one-on-ones. And I really appreciate that. Now I don't have to waste my time inviting you. I don't care if you don't come to this group stuff. If you only want to do one-on-ones, fine.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:14:09]:
I will connect with you and go to tea or do something else, but that's not an entire relationship because you're like, oh my gosh, I don't want to come to your barbecue. I don't care. I have so many friends here. It's fine if one does not make it. Yeah. Yeah.
Stephanie Rigg [00:14:26]:
I was actually just giving advice to a student in one of my courses before jumping on who was struggling with a boundary point around a friendship, a relatively new friendship where she had offered to pay for things in a social setting and had paid more than her share and had done that a couple of times and then was feeling very resentful that this person— feeling taken advantage of and feeling, well, I don't want to be friends with them anymore because they've been mooching off me and I've been paying for everything. And I think that's another good example of how we can participate in the boundarylessness of the relationship and then feel resentful of the fact that the other person has— maybe we've enabled their under-functioning or under-giving by way of our over-giving or our over-functioning. And maybe there's a recalibration that can happen. And as you say, giving someone a chance to show up under new terms rather than over-giving and then saying, well, you know, you're a bad friend and I don't want anything to do with you. Yeah.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:15:31]:
And I don't think in these instances that people are a bad person. I think sometimes certain people have limitations. And one of the comments to the podcast was, maybe she has social anxiety. I doubt that. She's a fairly social person. So here we go assuming, oh, here are the reasons. It could just be she's flaky. I mean, it could be as simple as that.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:15:56]:
She's flaky when it comes to things that she committed to. And so it might be better to make last-minute plans with her than to give her a date 4 weeks out and say, hey, can you do this thing? That, you know, I don't want to end every relationship because you have some, some personality differences from me. So it's like, how do we talk through this issue in our relationship?
Stephanie Rigg [00:16:22]:
Yeah, we can become so focused on the why behind people's behavior. And I think that that's great, and being compassionate and curious is great, and it has to sit alongside just like the what as well. Like, the why is good, but like, yeah, if the behaviour is not workable, then all of the context in the world doesn't change that. And it needs to sit alongside boundaries or conversations or whatever else that makes it sustainable, because I think a lot of people can over-index either overdo the compassion or not entertain it at all. Again, this, this theme of the extremes.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:16:59]:
Yeah. I think sometimes we are so compassionate that we don't really think about the, the other person's needs in the situation. I've been talking a lot about going no contact and, and one of the things that I think happens with that is it takes us so long to have these tough conversations or to even leave relationships because we're being very compassionate to a person who is sometimes being abusive, who's attacking us, who is putting us down. We're being very, oh, well, they just lost their job, or they had a hard childhood, or they had this, or they had that. And it's like, understandable, understandable, all those reasons. And it could be that. It could be that, or it could just be someone is mean. It could be as simple as that because there are a lot of people who have similar conditions to what that person you're talking about had that don't respond in this way.
Stephanie Rigg [00:18:01]:
Yeah. Yeah. And like for, for all of the context we can look at, like the reality of someone's behaviour is what it is. And that's like the reality we have to make choices based off. Right. And I think like we, We often forget ourselves in that equation and we need to be able to advocate for ourselves and make decisions that feel healthy and self-respecting, all the while extending compassion to other people.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:18:27]:
Yeah, it's, it's, it's one of those things that we have to use our compassion wisely. We can't just give it out to everyone in equal measure because there are some situations where we have to use our assertiveness and maybe not our compassion. Yeah, yeah.
Stephanie Rigg [00:18:46]:
Or, or even like compassion from a distance, right? Compassion while still saying, I can see whatever you're going through or the limits of your capacity, and I can also see that there is no world in which like a healthy relationship is going to exist between us, and so I have to keep my distance from you. And I think all of those crevices are really hard for people to navigate because we want it to be simpler than that, and we don't want the end of the storey to be so unsatisfactory and incomplete.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:19:19]:
Yeah, I completely agree with that, that sometimes we want a different outcome from the situation that we're actually in. Yeah. Yes.
Stephanie Rigg [00:19:29]:
And we fight against that. And I think so much of the time that takes the form of trying to convince people to behave differently. Over and over again, and that it's such a reliable way to drive ourselves crazy and to feel really resentful and powerless.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:19:49]:
Yeah. You know, one thing I feel like I say too often to clients is we can only manage the behaviour of the person in this room, right? Like, you're here in therapy. Yeah, it sounds like this other person's behaviour is problematic. It's annoying. It's this, it's that. I can't help them. Right. And if we, if we work on our part of it, like here is my part, not that it will always be enough, but I think it's pretty significant in our relationships.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:20:22]:
We have to be able to see ourselves.
Stephanie Rigg [00:20:25]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's a very powerful— I always relate to that kind of sentiment. Like anything that places me back in my agency, I'm like, yes, give it to me because I think that Anything else is just as seductive as it can be to focus so much on what they're doing or not doing and how they're showing up or not showing up. It's just such a drain on energy and very reliably leaves us feeling powerless because we're convinced that like they're holding the keys to the kingdom on whether or not we get to be happy or whether or not our relationships feel satisfactory. And I think that is a really good, like, whenever we're in that story, it's, oh, I'm, I'm back in that codependent place. Where I've placed my power over there with them rather than focusing on, OK, what are my choices here?
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:21:13]:
Yeah, how do we own our power in these situations and not give it away or put it out there for people to manage? I've done a lot of work with boundaries, and one of the things that I think is pivotal for boundaries is to manage your behaviors. So often we think the boundary is telling other people what they need to do. And I don't know how far you'll get with that. I think sometimes people can honour that. And I think there are other times you have to do something. And it could be as simple as, what is the consequence if that doesn't happen? Let's say you make this request. The boundary is the consequence. So if you don't do this, this is what can happen next.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:21:58]:
So you don't have to do it. You have choice. You can do whatever you want to do. But if that person does it, what will I do?
Stephanie Rigg [00:22:05]:
Yes. Yeah. Which is just like the simplest but most radical shift in the way that you think about boundaries. Because it's like the enforcement of the boundary can't depend on their cooperation or else it's going to— yes, it's just game over. You're like right back in, in the powerlessness and the stomping up and down and saying, this is so unfair. And it can feel so unfair. And of course, we hope that someone will meet us in the boundary and carry on in the relationship and all of that. And we need to have something to reach for so that we aren't left feeling empty-handed and again, like finding ourselves up against these boundaries that aren't really boundaries or that we've outsourced our power to them again.
Stephanie Rigg [00:22:50]:
Because I think that's just so defeating and we, we do feel really helpless and often like angry and bitter as a result of that without even realising why.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:22:59]:
Yeah, I love that. And I think There is so much resentment that is had from trying to control other people's behaviour and them not doing what we've asked or what we've told them to do.
Stephanie Rigg [00:23:13]:
Yeah. And I think sometimes it can be humbling to realise that so much of our way of relating revolves around an assumption that we know what's right for people or we know what they should be doing. And sometimes I think we just really have to like orient back to what's mine here. And can I accept them as they are? And if not, what kind of guardrails do I need to put in place so that we can continue to be in a relationship? And if there's no version of that that works, having regard to reality as it is rather than as I wish it were, then like I need to reckon with all of that and make some hard decisions. But I think so much of the time we're just pushing up against it's so unfair and here's how I wish it would be. It's like we just have to grieve the reality that we don't get.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:24:01]:
We don't get to choose how people show up in the world. Yeah, I think that's a tough one because we think we all have that superpower. We think we all have that, I could just go over here and tell this person this thing and then they'll X, Y, and Z. And it's, yeah, it's so obvious. Why can't they just? Yeah, why can't they just? And I have a fun nickname for people who use the word just a lot in describing what other people should do. They should just, they should just, I say they're Jessies, right? Like the Jessies of the world. It's just like, I'm like, okay, Jessie, it's so interesting that you think it's that simple for other people. And we have to remember that what might seem simple and easy and second nature for us is so hard for other people sometimes.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:24:54]:
I think about that. When I'm helping my kids with math, they're like gifted when it comes to math. So them doing math and me doing math, I don't even think about it in the same sort of way. I'm like, you're like 42 and then you minus this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, my brain doesn't work in that way when it comes to that thing. So it's, yeah, you can say that is an easy thing, but in actuality for me, it's It's very hard. It's not my thing. Yeah.
Stephanie Rigg [00:25:25]:
And then we create all of these stories, like we go into the meaning-making thing around if you loved me or if you cared, you would do X, Y, and Z. So the fact that you're not just doing that means that you don't. And then we spiral from that place. And again, I think, yep, it's a really good cue when you notice yourself doing that, that once again you've placed all of your like centre of gravity over there with them. And that's all I need to come back. What can I control and focus on?
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:25:55]:
What's my stuff? Yeah.
Stephanie Rigg [00:25:56]:
Which I think some people have resistance to because we can, again, particularly in that more codependent pattern, we can have the identity of I'm the good one. Like I'm the one who does everything and I'm the one who gives and I'm the one who takes care and thinks of you and tends to all of your needs. And we feel that martyrdom thing. It can be really uncomfortable to have the mirror held up to that pattern and to see that generosity with strings attached is not always loving.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:26:28]:
Yeah, and sometimes we have to recognize— Diana Hill has a book called Wise Effort, and she talks about how to not maximise your time necessarily, but where to put your energy, right? I think in relationships, we treat them as this one-size-fits-all sort of thing. So if I have taken on that I'm a great gift giver, even when people don't appreciate gifts, I'm going to be a great gift giver to them. Then I'm going to be disappointed when they are showing a lack of appreciation for this gift that I gave them instead of saying, this is a person where I could deprioritize gift giving. I don't even have to use my energy here to think too hard about buying them anything because they don't typically— they don't care about it. They don't appreciate it. It's not their thing, whatever the case. And for the people who really love that part of me, I can express it. But I don't need to be every version of myself with every single person that I'm in relationship with because there are some things that are necessary in some relationships and very unnecessary in others.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:27:41]:
And we have to figure out a way, like, where is the best use of my energy in this relationship with my partner, with my coworker, with my best friend, versus I'm going to do everything the same in every relationship and everybody should appreciate me the same way and they should do this and they should— it's okay. That's a lot of energy spent and some people won't appreciate it. It's exhausting.
Stephanie Rigg [00:28:08]:
Like even just hearing you describe that, it's like, oh, that sounds tiring. That's a tiring way to move through the world.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:28:16]:
Yeah. Yeah. I remember having someone in my life who— I like to buy people gifts for their birthday. And after a few years of buying them gifts and getting a lacklustre response or the response of, oh, why you ain't get me so-and-so? I was like, oh, I'm not. I don't have to buy them gifts. I don't even have to be— they don't even buy me gifts for my birthday. I don't even have to be upset at them about this thing. This doesn't even need to be a part of our relationship.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:28:45]:
I can just remove this as my thing because whenever I buy something, there's a, why didn't you do this or something? Again, not ending the relationship, but that doesn't have to be a part of our dynamic because it's causing friction.
Stephanie Rigg [00:29:00]:
Do you think that that decision and that binary around modifying the relationship rather than ending it, is that harder for people in romantic relationships? Because I think with friendships or family, because we have lots of friends and we have family, like, it feels like we can have different levels and there's a bit more— there are more degrees that we can maybe work with. I think people struggle with that decision more when it comes to romantic relationships because the vast majority of people are in monogamous relationships. So it's You're the one person I'm choosing. Do you think about that differently?
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:29:32]:
To an extent. I think with our partners, it is in our best interest to have outlets, resources for support other than them, because if we do not, we will be disappointed. If we are looking for them to appreciate all our efforts, be great at X, Y, and Z, that's when we get really frustrated. I think about listening skills and what I hear from women sometimes, oh my gosh, my husband and he doesn't listen in the way that you want him to because he doesn't— I say listen like a girl, right? Like when you're talking to your friend, she's like, and what does she have on? And like all of these questions that don't even get to a point, but it just feels really good to talk about these different paths and roads. And sometimes when you're talking to your husband, it might just be, okay, here's what you should do. And you're like, oh my gosh, I'm so disappointed. He didn't speak to me well. And it's like, know that when you speak to him, this will be the response.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:30:30]:
And if you're looking for this zhuzhed up fluffy sort of take on everything, you got to talk to your friends. You can't make this person like, okay, so ask me this next and then ask me this. It's not going to work that way. This person is presenting in the way that they can, and it doesn't mean they're a bad person. It's just their communication style is different and you're looking for something else and you should be able to get it. You just might not get it from this person.
Stephanie Rigg [00:31:00]:
Yeah, I mean, it ties into a whole broader conversation around our expectations in romantic relationship. And I think so many— yes, you have like impossibly high expectations coupled with a lot of fear of like, oh no, if my partner can't meet all of my needs in all of these ways, does that mean they're the wrong partner for me and I'm going to end up in an unhappy marriage? And we can like extrapolate and project out, and that can get us into a lot of a lot of fear and anxiety. But as you say, I think allowing ourselves to broaden out the lens in terms of, yeah, it's a valid need, but maybe I'm not going to get it met here in that exact way. And maybe in going elsewhere and being a bit more resourceful and flexible, then it lowers the stakes in my relationship and I can actually just appreciate my partner for who and how they—
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:31:50]:
for what they offer. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I have a storey in The Balancing Act where I talk about a woman who basically wanted out of her marriage because her husband didn't like to go to concerts and he didn't like to be social and she was a very social person, but he liked, like, being at home, being with their children and these sorts of things. And I'm not saying you can't ever do those things with him, but Are there other people who enjoy some of the same artists you do and like to go to concerts? Are there, there's some things that he's willing to do and some things you can do with other people? I mean, sure, maybe it's really important to you to have a partner that wants to be social and maybe that's a need that you can get fulfilled in a, in another relationship with someone else in your life, not an affair. But another platonic relationship where there's, there's a person that you do those things with and, and maybe it's not your partner. Yeah.
Stephanie Rigg [00:32:53]:
And I think it's important for people to realise that so often the traits that we maybe judge or resist or try to change in our partner, like if they were suddenly the opposite, we'd probably find some deficit in that as well. If we really want a partner who's super social, then we might be like, well, you're not family-oriented enough. All you want to do is go out. You can, right?
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:33:13]:
You're always— you always want to be out. Gosh, when do we hang out with the kids? Yeah, yeah.
Stephanie Rigg [00:33:21]:
Like, there's always going to be the flip side of the thing. And I think when we're again having these ridiculous expectations that someone's going to be like the perfect mix of qualities at exactly the time that we want them to be this version as opposed to that version, like, it's not living in reality. And I think the clearer we are on what is deeply important to us. And as you speak about, the more we can diversify out so that we're not needing them to meet every one of our needs all the time, then we can actually just go, oh, you're actually great. We can build like a really solid, mutually beneficial partnership without the heavy burden of all of these impossible expectations.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:34:06]:
Yeah. And, and being able to do that, I think requires us to tune into ourselves and what our needs are and an openness to develop other connections where we are not overusing our people. Because sometimes, even for a partner, having to be all the things that someone needs— I think about my husband who likes sports, and I don't like sports very much. So if I had to watch them to fulfil this need of him having conversations around football or basketball or him wanting to talk about different players being— I don't even know what you call it— switch teams or whatever they do. I think those are very exciting things to talk about, but as you can tell, I can't even remember the lingo. So talking to them with me is not the best use of your energy. It's like text a pal, phone a friend. I can't be the sports person.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:35:09]:
But if you want to talk about the personal storey of this person, I can. I only know the football player because of Taylor Swift, right? I don't know him outside of that. So I think it's these things where it's like, what can I get from this person in this relationship? It could be a friend. It can be our partner. We have to be able to say, there are some limitations here. Are there some other relationships that I need? I think as you move through different phases of life, you may need a friend in your neighborhood, right? That might be a new need for you. Like, you know what, I want to go on more walks. And maybe you get on Nextdoor and you say, hey, I want to start walking more.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:35:53]:
Anybody available to walk Saturday mornings at 7 o'clock, right? It's not like everybody in my house has to go walk with me. It's, no, I have a new need. Let's see who's available to do it.
Stephanie Rigg [00:36:04]:
Yeah, which again, I think is really vulnerable. I mean, I hear more and more from people that friendship feels really hard as an adult. We have all heard and read about loneliness and how that's such an increasing thing that people are struggling with. But there is this vulnerability around putting yourself out there for friendships, maybe even more so than romantically, because there's a pretence for it with romantic relationships. That, like, if people are in the dating market, so to speak, you've both opted into that. Whereas with friendships, it's— it feels a bit more unilateral maybe to put yourself out there and to, to try and make friends. So it is, it is challenging, but I think so important for us to have those other outlets and other people.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:36:51]:
And as you say, to spread our energy around a bit, spread our energy around, and to also preserve the ones we have. I think we don't consider the way that we overwork our people sometimes. I think telling the same friend the terrible day at work, that person is like, oh my gosh, she's so needy. All she does is complain. I think you need somebody at work maybe to talk to. You need like 3 other friends. You need to be able to incorporate some of their stories. So you're like, actually, my boss is not that bad.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:37:23]:
You need other spaces. It can't just be you talking about this one thing all the time. Like, people do burn out. We can overwork our system to the point that people are like, oh my gosh, I don't even want to answer her call because I know what it's going to be about.
Stephanie Rigg [00:37:37]:
Yes. So I feel like we've gone on a whole journey, and I don't think we actually got to painting the picture of what a healthy dependency looks like. I mean, we've sort of touched on it, but like, if you had to list out some traits or hallmarks of what that healthy middle ground looks like and, and how we can start trying to cultivate that in our relationships.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:37:57]:
Yes. So healthy dependency looks like being able to ask for and receive help. It looks like having more than one or a few support people. It looks like being able to be unique in your interactions with people. It looks like having friends at different levels, so having some associates, having some close connections, having like maybe a bestie, but, you know, maybe not all of those, but having people and understanding the value in and just having a regular relationship even with your barista. That's not a friend, but it is a social connection. Understanding that all of those things are important and actually seeking them. I think with healthy dependency, there is some willingness to try something new when the thing you're doing isn't working.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:38:50]:
Sometimes we will, because of our ego, because of our perspective, we will try to proceed with something that's not working because we just want it to. And just being flexible in how you show up in your relationships and you're able to tailor the tools to the person, right? There are some friends where it's like you could give them advice, they're never going to listen. Stop that. Save your energy. Again, wise effort. Just save your energy. There's another friend who's dying for some feedback. You don't have to give it to this person who pisses you off every time because they never listen to you.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:39:29]:
So do something different. We have to be willing to do what feels uncomfortable. If you have an anxious or avoidant attachment style, you have to do something that feels uncomfortable to have connection. There's no other way to get to the trust in relationships without saying, ugh, this is so uncomfortable for the avoidant. I'm going to call this person back, right? I think you have to do what doesn't feel intuitive because sometimes what feels intuitive is absolutely wrong and will not put you in the space you want to be in. And we feel like, nope, my gut said I shouldn't do it. No, don't. Do not listen to that gut.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:40:12]:
That gut is rotten. That gut— let's throw some kombucha on that thought. And let's do something else because that is going to leave you in this very isolated space that you, you think you thrive in. So yeah, I think it, it's, it's being healthy and dependent looks like having a vast amount of tools and resources that you employ to be in relationships with others.
Stephanie Rigg [00:40:45]:
Yes. I, I often say in that context of needing to do the thing that doesn't come naturally, that if we always just follow familiar feelings and impulses, they're going to lead us to familiar places, like every time, very reliably. Don't be surprised when you do the thing you've always done and there you are in that same situation again. I think we've got to be pretty honest when we throw our hands up and say, like, why does this always happen to me?
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:41:10]:
It's like, well, because you keep doing the same thing, doing the same thing. I love reading Amazon reviews and a review that, that comes up quite often in some different variation is a person who is putting something together wrong and they keep doing it the wrong way. And then there's someone who comments like, did you try so-and-so? They did. This person never even tried it. There's nothing wrong with the product. Nope. I kept trying to stick it in this one hole. This one hole, I just kept doing that over and over and it didn't work.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:41:46]:
And now I'm angry and bitter and I'm going to give this thing 1 star. And it's like, oh wow, I wish you would have maybe ran this past 5 other people because this isn't actually broke. You needed to pull that piece of paper out of there first before you put the batteries in. Totally.
Stephanie Rigg [00:42:03]:
And I think that all comes back to like, you know, I really liked that phrase wise effort. I'm going to go and look that up, but it sounds to me like another way of saying discernment. And it feels like a lot of what you just spoke about in cultivating more of that healthy dependency and balance is like having discernment around where do I spend my energy, what do I expect of people, can I, can I be discerning around all of that and really self-responsible?
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:42:29]:
Yeah, I think we are in an era of people being very self-protective but not realising that they have the ability to discern what is right and what is wrong in some of these, these situations. Everyone is not one way. And so being able to think about it on a deeper level is sometimes what's, what's missing. Yeah.
Stephanie Rigg [00:42:55]:
And to respond to like the situation in real time and as it unfolds, I feel like we often feel this pressure to make, make really like big singular binary decisions about a relationship. Because we're scared that, oh, if I don't set a really clear boundary now, then like I'm going to be stuck in some horrible relationship in the future. It's like, oh, we get to exercise choice and we can refine things and pivot and course correct along the way. It's not so black and white. And I think being able to trust ourselves enough that we can navigate it and course correct as we go to kind of wade through the mess of it rather than defaulting to these very extreme protective stances, I think That's so much of where we struggle. Yeah.
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:43:38]:
Yeah. I love the way you said that.
Stephanie Rigg [00:43:40]:
Is there anything that you would leave people with in terms of like the, the place to start or if there's one key takeaway from it all? Of course, encourage everyone to go and read your book when it comes out, which it should be out by the time this airs. But is there any little nugget that you would like to leave people with?
Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:43:56]:
We are capable of change and we are capable of variety. And I think if we really want the lives and relationships that are healthy and that matter to us, we have to do something different and we might have to exercise some new tools.
Stephanie Rigg [00:44:15]:
Thank you so much, Nedra, for sharing your wisdom. Nedra's new book, The Balancing Act, should be out now and you can get it in all of the places where you get books. We'll also link it in the show notes. But thank you so much for being so generous with your time and sharing your wisdom with us. You're welcome.
Keywords from Podcast Episode
modern dating, attachment styles, dating mindset, self-worth, scarcity mindset, pessimism, defeat, dating apps, disposability, ghosting, online dating, anxious attachment, rejection fears, people pleasing, approval seeking, standards in dating, non-negotiables, deal breakers, dating alignment, green flags, red flags, situationships, flaky connections, anxiety in dating, self-trust, agency, nourishing vitality, self-confidence, intentional dating, relationship values, taking a break from dating apps