#110 What Healthy Interdependency Looks Like & How to Cultivate It
In today's episode, we're exploring healthy interdependency. Interdependency is often cited as a key trait of secure functioning relationships, and yet many of us lack a clear picture of what healthy interdependency actually looks and feels like - especially if you have a history of insecure attachment patterns.
In today's episode, we're exploring healthy interdependency. Interdependency is often cited as a key trait of secure functioning relationships, and yet many of us lack a clear picture of what healthy interdependency actually looks and feels like - especially if you have a history of insecure attachment patterns.
We’ll cover:
The spectrum from codependency to hyper-independence
Interdependency as a healthy middle ground
How different attachment styles relate to codependency, independence and interdependence
Signs of healthy interdependency in a relationship
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
JOIN THE WAITLIST FOR MY NEW COURSE ON ANXIOUS-AVOIDANT RELATIONSHIPS
Save $150 on my Higher Love break-up course with the code PHOENIX
Follow me on Youtube
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
[00:00:04]:
In today's episode, we are talking all about cultivating healthy interdependency in relationships, which is really one of the hallmarks of secure relating and secure attachment. So this is an area that I think doesn't come naturally for those of us with more insecure attachment patterns as their starting point. But it really is such an important thing to have as a reference point as you're doing this work, so that you can be really aware of what would a secure couple do? How would that look? And how can we bring more of that energy of balance and mutual care and respect to whatever we are grappling within our relationship? So we're going to be looking at this spectrum of relating from codependency at one end through to hyper independence at the other, and then figuring out what this healthy middle ground of interdependence looks and feels like. And then I'm going to be giving you some more specific signs or things to work towards insofar as healthy interdependency is concerned, so that you can start to take steps towards that and cultivate that in yourself and in your relationships.
[00:01:41]:
So that is what we're talking about today. Before we dive into today's conversation, a couple of quick announcements. The first one is very exciting and I almost hesitate to actually announce it because it formally locks us into following through, but I am in the process of creating a new programme for couples around anxious avoidant relationships. So my master class on how to navigate anxious, avoidant relationships is my most popular by far has been purchased and used by almost 1000 people in the last year. And I've had it in my mind for a long time to spin that out into a fully fledged course with a view to providing that for couples to work through, to cultivate more secure patterns together. And so I'm really excited to announce that we have in the pipeline a course for couples, particularly in those anxious avoidant dynamics, and that my partner Joel, who leans more avoidant, is going to be joining me in creating and presenting that for you. So that's something that I'm very, very excited to announce. It's not ready and available yet, but it will be in the not too distant future.
[00:02:51]:
And if that's something that piques your interest and you would like to put your name on a waitlist to learn more about that when the time comes, I have put the waitlist link in the show notes and you can sign up to that which will, as always, not only allow you to get first access and all of the details, but also very discounted launch pricing. So if that interests you and you want to go deeper on the art of secure relating when you're in that anxious avoidant dynamic, I would love for you to jump on the waitlist for this new course. Okay, second quick announcement is just to share the featured review which is from the first episode I listened to. It literally pointed out feelings and triggers that I felt during my past relationships that kept me from a fulfilling, healthy relationship. I always wondered what is this feeling? And now this podcast has opened my eyes and I feel like I'll be able to concentrate my healing into becoming a better version of myself. Thank you for all your work and words. Thank you so much for your beautiful review. If that was yours, please send an email to podcast@stephanierigg.com and my team will set you up with free access to one of my masterclasses.
[00:03:57]:
Okay, let's dive into this conversation around cultivating healthy interdependency in relationships. So, as I flagged in the introduction, there's this broad spectrum that we could look at from codependency on the one end to hyper independence on the other and we can see how anxious patterns probably veer more towards codependency or certainly can do, whereas extreme avoidance tends to be in the direction of hyper independence. And it's really important to understand that neither of these being opposite extremes of a spectrum are the healthy middle which I talk so much about and what we're all trying to cultivate on this path to more secure relationships. So codependency is not something that I'm going to go into in great depth, it really is its whole own body of work. And for those who don't really know much about the origins of that body of work, it's very much in the context of addiction and the systems around addicts. So codependency being a dynamic that's often seen in those systems whereby a partner of someone with addictions tends to over function and make themselves needed by someone in order to protect the relationship and to protect themselves. And that usually is driven by very low self worth and comes with its whole own set of dynamics that can be really challenging. And of course if that is in the context of addiction, then that is its whole own kettle of fish.
[00:05:28]:
But codependency tends to be this energy of I need you to need me in order for me to feel okay. And so I over function and overgive and overextend myself and I try and take care of all of your needs so that I become indispensable to you because I don't trust that without that you would want me and this relationship wouldn't be able to stand on its own 2ft without my over functioning. But the problem with that is that it tends to facilitate and perpetuate the other side of the coin, which is the under functioning of the other partner, the under giving. So it's sort of like excessive selflessness or self sacrifice tends to feed and reinforce selfishness or self absorption on the other side. So codependency is not a balanced dynamic and it's not something that we want to be shooting for in our relationships. And yet if you are someone with more anxious attachment patterns, you can easily veer into some of those behaviours. Again, not to conflate anxious attachment and codependency, although I think certainly people with more anxious patterns would be more prone to ending up in codependent dynamics and relationships. But we can see some of the other things I've spoken about many times on the show.
[00:06:46]:
Things like over giving, over functioning, tiptoeing around someone's sensitivities, walking on eggshells, trying to insulate someone from the consequences of their own behaviour, trying to stabilise someone's emotional state, and really working hard to do all of that are all symptoms of what we might call codependency. In essence, it's by taking care of you, I am taking care of myself, that if I can make you be stable and your needs taken care of, then that will have some trickle down effect to me and I will be safe in some way. At the other end of the spectrum is hyper independence. And this is very much the classic more dismissive, avoidant pattern of I don't need anybody and we should all be responsible for our own needs and be these very discreet units and we can be in relationship with each other, but ultimately we're not responsible for each other in any way. And so I don't need anything from you and I don't expect you to want or need anything from me. I expect you to take care of yourself in large part, okay? And so this type of person tends to be very averse to the idea of someone wanting or needing things from them, can be quite almost turned off or repulsed by the idea of someone being needy. Their threshold for what neediness entails is very low and there can be a lot of almost content or disdain for the idea of people having needs and being vulnerable in that way. So I think what a lot of anxious people do is they see someone's hyper independence and they go, wow, you have such good boundaries, or you're so secure because you are so independent.
[00:08:37]:
And that tends to be a slight misconstruction of what security means because really one of the hallmarks of secure attachment is I'm comfortable relying on others and having them rely on me. I can take care of my own needs, but I don't feel the need to do that either from a place of self protection or from martyrdom, which are kind of the two flavours you might see in anxious or avoidant people. It's this sense of I'm not grasping or clutching at someone from this survival driven place of neediness and fear, but equally I'm comfortable in the idea of leaning on people and being supported and offering my support in return. So there's this really beautiful experience of balance and trust that comes with secure attachment and interdependency. So let's go through some of the signs of healthy interdependencies and things you might look out for in your relationships. Or perhaps as I share these, you might go, oh, okay, that's where we're a little off the mark and where we need to be stepping more towards in the way that we relate to each other. So the first sign that I want to offer is both persons needs matter as much as the others, so we are committed not only do I care about my needs and advocating for my needs, but I really want your needs to be met and vice versa. We both have this same mindset of elevating both of our needs to this level of high priority, right? Because we both understand and recognise that the success of our relationship depends on both of us feeling loved, cared for, respected, admired, supported and so we are really actively nurturing and nourishing those things again and it has to go both ways.
[00:10:27]:
This is very important because as soon as we've got one person who's doing that and going, oh, I'm very invested in you getting your needs met but it doesn't come back the other way, then we're back in codependency territory, right? So it has to be I care a lot about my needs and your needs and you have to care about both of our needs as well and that's what brings us into this space of interdependency rather than being one of the other expressions of either codependency or hyper independence. So this is also a departure from what I often see, which is mostly with anxiously attached people just because that's the bulk of who I work with. But people assuming that needs and this tussle of my needs versus your needs has to be a zero sum game with a winner and a loser. And that is very much an insecure mindset and way of relating to needs. Whereas healthy interdependency is we don't have to have a winner and a loser. We don't have to sacrifice one person's well being in order for the other person's well being or needs or desires or preferences to be catered to. We're both really actively invested in finding solutions that are really good for both of us, not just we're both compromising to some watered down version of what truly works. We find something that feels good for us both rather than who gets to win.
[00:11:50]:
What about me? Why should they get their way? All of those things. If you're hearing that and going, yeah, that's my internal dialogue as it is for a lot of people with more anxious, avoided and insecure patterns, that's really what we want to shift away from, because the more we're entrenched in that oppositional mentality, of course, all of these conversations, it doesn't feel safe. It doesn't feel like we can trust, because we feel like we've got to protect our interests and fiercely advocate for our position against the position or the interests of someone else. And it's almost like a debate, right? Why I should win instead of you, why I'm right and you are wrong. Interdependency is really putting that to the side and going, okay, we might have a departure in how we view this situation or how our needs interact here what would be a really great path forward that honours both of us and really elevates both of our needs to this place of really important. We both really are invested in both of us getting our needs met and how can we be creative in finding a solution from that starting point and that intention. Okay, the next sign of healthy interdependency that I want to share is you take turns being in the support role. Okay? Picking up the slack.
[00:13:08]:
When one person is stressed, the other really rises to the occasion and supports them and tunes in and goes, oh, my partner's stress. How can I support them? And you take turns in that. I think what often happens, again in more anxious, avoidant dynamics, in more codependent patterns, if we want to use that terminology, is one person is the one who's always stressed and the other person is always in the support role. And that again leads to a very imbalanced dynamic where one person is orbiting around the other and tiptoeing around them and trying to preempt their needs and try to anticipate what might be stressing them out and how to solve it, and then they get lost in the process. Right? The internal dialogue or the internal script might be like, well, what about me? Who's going to care for me? Who's going to support me? Who's going to look out for me? And I say that having thought and felt that many times myself. So I understand this deeply, but I also recognise that we have to recalibrate that and part of it. If you're the person who tends to always be in the support role, a big part of your work is learning how to receive support because it's much more comfortable. If that's always been your role to be helping, to be supporting, to be caring, it's much more vulnerable to say, hey, I could really use some support.
[00:14:26]:
I could really use some extra care and attention because I'm stressed or my capacity is low and it would feel so nourishing to my system to just feel really held and cared for. So helping Interdependency looks like tag teaming on that, right? One person picks up the slack when the other feels a little low or a little stretched or a little underresourced. It's not about perfect equality, but an overall impression of fairness, right? We're not point scoring because we both trust in the fact that the other will have our back. And so we can really go between that in this beautifully fluid, trusting way without, again, having that oppositional mentality of, it's either me or you. Either I support you or I get supported, but not both. And really, interdependency is living in the land of both. Okay? The next sign of healthy interdependency is you play to your respective strengths and you work really well as a team. So it's in a similar vein, right? You don't have to be point scoring, you don't have to be saying, I always do that, and you always do this, and comparing and competing.
[00:15:35]:
You recognise that you each have your strong suits and you really slot into those roles in a way that allows you to function really effectively as a team and recognising those strengths and really playing into them, into your complementarity as a team and going, oh, okay, we work better when we are in this together and really feeling that. So, again, it's this idea of we don't have to go one or the other. We don't have to be keeping tally or score. We don't have to feel like we're protecting our interests or looking over our shoulder. It's like, yeah, we know how to do this dance in a way where we both feel supported and successful and like, we can really be a well oiled machine from this place and feel really held and supported. Okay. And the final sign that I wanted to share with you, and I should have said this is by no means an exhaustive list, it's just a few of the things you might want to look out for. You both really want to know if something's bothering the other person.
[00:16:41]:
Okay? So there is no conflict aversion in this space. There's no sense of, do we have to talk about it or tiptoeing around it, or oh, I don't want to upset them, or I don't want them to feel bad, so I won't raise it, or I don't want them to take it the wrong way. All of that anxiety around raising a concern. There is this sense in the relationship, this culture of we absolutely, both of us, want to know if something is bothering the other, if there's an unmet need, if there's resentment building. We are both really proactive in cleaning house, so to speak, in, can we bring these things to the surface and bring them to each other? Because we want to be I think, of the visual of there being a pane of glass between us that represents our relationship. And if there are, like smudges or little things building on that pane of glass, we want to keep it clean and clear so that the energy between us is really good and we know that we work well from that space. But when things start to build up and we just ignore them or we sweep them under the rug or we turn away, we avoid that really builds up over time. And healthy, interdependency, secure, functioning couples really are so committed to the ongoing care and maintenance of their relationship such that we turn towards those things and we call it out.
[00:18:06]:
And there's enough trust in the relationship that it's not received as an attack. It's not, oh, here we go again. We have to talk about it. It's like, oh, please point out my blind spots. Please let me know where I'm missing things, because I want us to thrive. And that requires both of us to be feeling overall a sense of fairness and love and connection and support in the relationship. Now, this isn't to say that people with secure patterns in their relationship or healthy interdependency are perfectly, 100% connected and happy with each other all of the time. Of course not.
[00:18:38]:
That is unrealistic. No one is suggesting that. But there is an overall culture and climate of trust and respect and care and commitment in the relationship that allows you to approach all of these things, whether it's conflict or discussions of needs or boundaries or concerns. Desires. Preferences with a tone of openness and a prioritisation of those things as being in the interests of both of you and the relationship and really making that your joint commitment and mission to always be pruning the garden, cleaning that pane of glass and investing in the relationship. Because you both know that you benefit from the relationship thriving. So I hope that's given you a feel for what healthy interdependency looks like and how it's different from more codependent patterns or hyper independence and how you might start to make some shifts in your relationship to step off the ledge at those two extremes and make your way towards a more healthy middle ground. So if you've enjoyed this episode, as always, I'm so grateful for those of you who leave reviews or five star ratings.
[00:19:52]:
If you're listening on Spotify, it helps so much in continuing to grow the podcast, and I'm so grateful for your ongoing support. Otherwise, I look forward to seeing you again next time. Thanks, guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment. If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here and I hope to see you again sooner.
#109 Anxious Attachment & Open Relationships
In today's episode, I'm sharing some thoughts around anxious attachment & open relationships. While not being my personal experience, this is an area I receive a lot of requests and questions around, as various non-monogamous relationship structures grow in popularity.
In today's episode, I'm sharing some thoughts around anxious attachment & open relationships. While not being my personal experience, this is an area I receive a lot of requests and questions around, as various non-monogamous relationship structures grow in popularity.
We’ll cover:
Common struggles of anxious attachment and how they might show up in an open relationship structure
The importance of having a strong relationship to self when exploring open relationships
Communication, boundaries and self-advocacy
Why you should never agree to open a relationship just to hold onto someone
FURTHER LINKS & RESOURCES:
Save $150 on my Higher Love break-up course with the code PHOENIX
Follow me on Youtube
Follow me on Instagram: @stephanie__rigg & @onattachment
You might also like…
Episode Transcript
[00:00:04]:
Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of On Attachment. In today's episode, I'm talking all about anxious attachment and open relationships, which is a topic that I have resisted up until now. Not because I have any position against open relationships or any sort of philosophical take on this issue, but really just because it's not my personal experience and so much of what I share on the show is derived in one form or another from my personal experience. And so a part of me feels ill qualified to speak on this topic. And I should say at the outset that I'm not going to be speaking on the virtues or otherwise of alternative relationship structures other than monogamy.
[00:01:10]:
But really, I'm going to be focusing on the questions that I get a lot of the time from people who identify as anxiously attached and are thinking about entering into some sort of open relationship structure and also speaking. About some of the pitfalls or challenges that you might be likely to encounter as someone with anxious attachment patterns by virtue of the structural elements of those relationships and things to look out for, how you might be able to alleviate some of those stresses or support yourself best through that, if that's your intention. So that's what I'm going to be talking about today. Before I dive into that, a quick announcement. I wanted to let you guys know that I have started a YouTube channel, actually started a YouTube channel about a year ago, but it has had no videos up until now and I have finally bit the bullet, pulled the trigger, and I am uploading quite a lot of videos. I've got a lot of content from the podcast and elsewhere. So if you want to watch the podcast, you'll be able to watch clips of it on YouTube. But I'm also going to be uploading exclusive content there, speaking to various topics and questions on attachment, love relationships, all the same stuff that you get here but in video form for those of you who like YouTube.
[00:02:27]:
So be sure to go check me out. My handle is Stephanie Rigg. You should be able to find me pretty easily, but I would love if you would head over to YouTube and subscribe to my channel and support my videos there. Thanks guys. Okay, so let's talk about open relationships and anxious attachment. So I think on the surface you could see anxious attachment and everything that we know about anxious attachment and then look at open relationships and go, surely that's not going to be a good fit, right? And yet I've had a number of clients as well as heaps of people on instagram who reach out to me asking for advice on this. It is definitely something that's growing in people's awareness, these alternative relationship structures, something that people are more interested to explore than perhaps they would have been historically when most people have defaulted to monogamy. Let's take a step back.
[00:03:20]:
We know that people with anxious attachment patterns struggle with fears around abandonment, fears around unworthiness, fears around rejection, fears around jealousy and comparison. And so we can see that a lot of these things are usually alleviated for anxious people by getting into relationship and staying in relationship and as much as possible, eliminating doubt, uncertainty, establishing some semblance of control and security by holding onto someone pretty tightly. That's what most people do who have anxious attachment patterns. And so on the surface you could look at that and see how it could be really easily exacerbated by open relationships or other structures whereby there isn't the same level of exclusivity, commitment, security as there might be in a monogamous setting. Again, please be very clear, I'm not making value judgments. I'm not saying that there isn't security and there isn't commitment. And I know that depending on the structure, those things can absolutely still be present, albeit in a different form. But I think that something that's really important and I've given this advice to clients before, is if you are really in the thick of anxious attachment, if you are not working with a stable foundation within yourself, if you are experiencing a lot of unworthiness.
[00:04:46]:
If you're experiencing a lot of fear and insecurity, then it's probably not the best time to wade into the waters of more complicated relationship structures. Because I think in most cases it would be fair to say that it does add a layer of complexity, having more people in the mix, having more considerations, more people's needs and dynamics. It is getting more complicated than monogamy. Not to say that it's worse than just different and I would say oftentimes more complicated. And so I think if you haven't mastered you're in a relationship, I e your relationship with yourself and you're in relationship with someone else and that's feeling really insecure, then branching out into non monogamy in whatever form is probably just going to be exacerbating the insecurities that are already present. So I think that as a starting point, it's a good idea to really work on building a level of comfort and security within yourself before thinking about going onto these additional levels of complexity that are likely to bring you even more so into contact with those wounds around unworthiness jealousy, comparison, rejection, abandonment. So I think that's a really important point is do I have the mental and emotional fortitude at the moment to be putting myself in situations where I may very well be quite triggered and feel really insecure? And maybe I don't have the skills or capacity at this time to advocate for myself in the way that would allow me to experience that safely? I think the other thing, and this won't apply to everyone, but I think a really important consideration is oftentimes people who are more anxious will be in relationship with people who are more avoidant. We know that, but there may be some pressure from one person to open up the relationship.
[00:06:46]:
Now, again, I realise there are a lot of caveats in this episode. I told you I was treading carefully. I realise that that's not every situation. Some people from the outset are in open relationships, but equally, I think a lot of people will be in partnership. And then there's pressure from one person to open up the relationship. And if that's a situation that you are in or have been in, I have to caution you to be really careful and make sure that that is what you want as well. Because the very worst thing that you could do, particularly as someone with anxious attachment patterns, is agree to open up a relationship just so you avoid losing someone. And I think that that can happen.
[00:07:28]:
It's certainly happened to people I've worked with. I've received a lot of messages from people who are saying my partner wants to open the relationship and I'm scared to lose them, so I would rather do this than lose them altogether, so I'd rather at least be involved in some way or have transparency and some sort of veto power. And I think that while all of that's really understandable, it is not going to be the solution to your problems. So making sure that if you are thinking about opening up your relationship and you're someone with more anxious attachment patterns or anyone for that matter, anyone who's struggling with unworthiness or frankly, if you're perfectly secure but you feel like there's pressure from someone to open up a relationship when that's not what you want. I think it's really important to tune in and go, is this what I want? Or am I just trying to hold on to someone? Because I think a lot of the time people will just yield to that out of fear and it is very, very rare that is going to ultimately make your situation better. It will almost always make your situation worse because the fear and insecurity that is driving you to say yes to that thing that you don't really want is going to be 100 fold. Once you're opening up your relationship and your partner is seeing other people or whatever other structure it might look like, that is not going to be a good outcome for you. So getting really clear on what your boundaries are, what your limits are, what you actually want and being comfortable, advocating for what you actually want and what you don't want I think is extremely important.
[00:09:00]:
And for folks with more anxious attachment patterns, there's growth in that because that's not the starting point for most of us is not to have real clarity around what we want and what our limits are and then take that additional step of advocating for ourselves in that. That brings me to the last thing that I sort of want to flag, which is if you are wanting to explore open relating as someone with anxious attachment patterns, you're going to want to really work on your communication. And this is true for everyone. Again, it's not my area of expertise, but I think we could all agree that something that people in non monogamous relationships do really well when they do it well is communication. And that's something that a lot of people hold up as being the big growth for them in exploring these alternative relationship structures. Is there's no space to be lazy or complacent around your communication of boundaries and desires and all of those things? I think for those of us in monogamous relationships there's certain default assumptions and expectations that we can get a little lazy about and it allows us to bypass talking about things quite directly. So one of the opportunities and the gifts you could say of these alternative relationship structures is that it really invites you into much more direct and open communication with the personal people that you're going to be in relationship with. And I think that that can be a real area of growth for you as someone with anxious attachment patterns.
[00:10:26]:
But I guess the word of warning or caution is don't shy away from that. I know that talking about things can be really uncomfortable and particularly if there is any insecurity there, not wanting to push someone away, not wanting to voice our fears out of worry that we're going to be seen as needy. All of those things I totally understand. But if you are thinking of exploring open relationships, communication, it's absolutely paramount because there is so much space for misinterpretation. And if you don't have absolute clarity and directness around your respective expectations, what's okay and what's not okay, where the lines are, how it's all going to work, then there's a lot of potential for hurt and misunderstanding and pain. And of course, that's not what we want. So those are a few thoughts on anxious attachment and open relationships. As I said, far from being a comprehensive overview of what is a very big topic.
[00:11:19]:
But I hope that for those of you who are either considering opening up a relationship that you're already in or you're considering exploring open relating as a starting point, that that just gives you a few things to think. About in terms of what it might bring up for you and how best to navigate that in a way that is self responsible and self compassionate. So that if you do make that choice that you're doing it in a way that's likely to be resourced and allowing you to really take care of yourself rather than triggering yourself more deeply into those wounds and those fears and Insecurities that might already be lurking under the surface. As always, super grateful for those of you who leave reviews. If you've enjoyed this episode, if you could leave a five star rating or a review, as I said, do come find me on YouTube. I'm working hard to build up a library of great resources for you there, but otherwise, I look forward to seeing you again next time. Thanks, guys. Thanks for joining me for this episode of On Attachment.
[00:12:18]:
If you want to go deeper on all things attachment, love and relationships, you can find me on Instagram @stephanie__rigg or at stephanierigg.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you could leave a review and a five star rating. It really does help so much. Thanks again for being here, and I hope to see you again sooner.